I don’t like smartphones. I use a dumbphone.
But this is a wonderful initiative.
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Shame there is no Graphene OS support for it
The biggest downside of Fairphone IMO is that they don’t maintain their hardware support in LineageOS and for the retail product then branch development off, add a bit of custom branding and adapt whatever Google requires these days. It would greatly improve custom ROM support in general.
Graphene isn’t the best choice for everything. It doesn’t have good backup solutions nor device to device backup or anything solid for complete snapshots and when restoring your so called backups you’ll realize what all it truly lacks.
It’s hardened and has a lot of security and privacy features but none of that matters if your opsec is bad, or it’s feature set doesn’t match your threat model. I am not knocking it at all. It just isn’t the white knight for every case.
What’s wrong with Seedvault?
Seedvault works, I’ve restored from backups multiple times.
However there are still many parts of overall data that aren’t fully backed up.
Certain app data doesn’t get saved.
Settings are but not in entirety requiring manual rechecks of all settings and reconfiguration if needed. Which saves no time because then you cannot trust it fully for what was and was not altered meaning you then must asses everything which took away the total value, and adds a layer of distrust.
Profiles must be backed up individually which creates a giant hassle to restore/maintain consistent backups, which also requires different drives for each profile to be recognized correctly.
App lists are impartial requiring a wrote down list or some form of rememberance that’s not reliant on the backup list of installed apps.
I can go on with more its late in my time zone and I have to sleep so. It’s a good project and has merit. It is just not where it should be to really be useful at scale. I am aware of the experimental setting to create a more comprehensive backup. Even with it checked on the backups are not complete. Thus the use of Graphene while a great project has definite major flaws. If they implement device to device backups it would be a game changer. Not high up on their list of to dos though.
Thanks for the info. I have not really tested Seedvault myself so this is all good to know.
Ironically, one of the main reasons I switched to GrapheneOS was because Google’s backups were so frustrating and I was hoping Seedvault would be more comprehensive.
It is and its not. You just have to know the limitations, some of which I mentioned. Try it for yourself and to a restore then report back you’ll understand it’s very cumbersome in some ways.
Don’t expect to be able to wipe a phone and restore from backup like you never left it’ll get you closeish. So you need to ask yourself is that good enough for you with your opsec and threat model? To only have part of your data back…
In its current form its just a hassle right now to create backups on seperate drives (not even partitions on one drive I tried, as seedvault and the OS only identifies the drive you don’t get to choose) for each profile plugging them into your phone individually, backing up each one, and keeping them up to date often, it’s a lot! I have swapped several pixels and profiles I hate doing it everytime it really is a subpar process. I AM ALL EARS FOR A BETTER SOLUTION. Having to piece your data back together for it to be complete again doesn’t sit right with me to be considered backed up correctly. It leaves you vulnerable and some of us don’t like being locked into any specific device or situation like having your life on a device and being at the mercy of it for any reason you might encounter. I’m actually moving away from graphene due to these issues. It’s just not there yet.
Its one thing to read the documentation and another to have experience in using the software first hand which is why I got downvotes, over time, daily those are the ones who have experienced what I mean. I just wanted people to be aware that it’s not the saving grace yet.
Imagine the real world use case of backups and maintenance which should be done as often as possible as to lose as little data as possible. Phone gets broken, stolen, confiscated, what have you. Having reliable backups is the difference between starting over and continuing with what could be your entire life in this digital age.
I’m being bugged by Seedvault caring for apps that have a ‘don’t backup app data’ flag.
I could live with that being a default setting, which can be manually overwritten in the Seedvault settings for these apps.
Apps not allowing (in case of Seedvault: encrypted) full backups while offering no or bad built-in backups is just cumbersome when trying to have current backups.afaik their device-to-device mode should be able to workaround that. it can still be saved to storage
I believe you’re right, but that doesn’t solve the problem of making routine full backups, which would come in handy if the device gets lost or breaks.
One can hope future versions of Seedvault care less about what apps want.
Agreed.
That said, it would be awesome to have an alternative to Pixel devices if you do want GrapheneOS.
The project has sort of silo’d itself into security which is only one part of the equation. Rather than overall completeness, functionality, maintainability. It’s lacking major fundamental feature sets. Thus its more of a tails meets whonix/Qubes right now not a all in one bow wrapped package to save the day for its consumer base. Many many other issues/bugs I didnt list. Perhaps I’ll add more tomorrow. If everyone wants.
And that’s exactly what it should be IMO. I prefer a project with narrow goals to one that does everything, but poorly.
If I want backups, I can use something like Syncthing. When moving to a new device, I prefer to install everything from scratch because I generally don’t use most of the apps I have anyway. I don’t put anything critical on it, so why would I need to restore from a snapshot?
If you want those features, it’s not the ROM for you.
I just want a simple device with a long support cycle and no spyware, and GrapheneOS delivers. I have Google Play Services on a seperate profile, and my main profile is completely free of that crap. I want a Linux phone, but every phone has serious limitations, like missing audio, sketchy calls, or completely broken camera. GrapheneOS is the closest experience I have to that.
If I want backups, I can use something like Syncthing.
syncthing cant backup your device. that is a file transfer app. for backing up the device you need either appmanager and root, or good old dd and root (and a half shutdown system)
I don’t put anything critical on it, so why would I need to restore from a snapshot?
- because not everyone uses the device the same way as you
- snapshots are always complete. file based backups are not because of metadata changes. seedvault even less because it picks apps except this and that, and an unknown subset of the settings, and shared storage for the files that you have enabled
If you want those features, it’s not the ROM for you.
currently there’s no ROM on which you could execute a real backup, thanks to encrypted storage with keys stored in TPM. TPM sees a change, and now your backup is a useless blob of practically random data
I just want a simple device with a long support cycle and no spyware, and GrapheneOS delivers.
as does calyx os
I have Google Play Services on a sperate profile, and my main profile is completely free of that crap. I want a Linux phone, but every phone has serious limitations, like missing audio, sketchy calls, or completely broken camera.
with microg, this can be done on calyx too. there’s even a few options on how much you want google to know.
and if your point is that not all apps work with microg, then you would never actually move to a linux phone because that will never have google play services (hopefully, else something has gone way wrong), probably not even microg or apps that would depend on it
syncthing cant backup your device. that is a file transfer app.
That’s exactly what backup software is, it’s keeping copies of important data in multiple places so if one dies/gets stolen, you have backup copies.
I can tell syncthing to copy all my important data to another device.
I don’t need all the installed apps or a disk image, that’s way overkill. I could do that, but it’ll get way more than I need.
as does calyx os
You’re right, Calyx OS is also a good choice.
I went with GrapheneOS for two reasons:
- sandboxed Google Play vs microG - no option AFAIK to disable it
- faster security updates
My goal is a baby step toward Linux phones, not compatibility with Android. I only have Google Play Services on a separate profile, and I spend 95% of my time on the profile without it. The less I rely on Google Play Services, the easier it’ll be for me to transition to Linux alternatives.
Better app compatibility is a nice side effect. I have a handful of apps that rely on Google Play Services, and there’s a decent chance they wouldn’t work on microG. But I rarely use them and I’m willing to go without if it means I can have a Linux phone.
sandboxed Google Play vs microG - no option AFAIK to disable it
you mean disabling microg?
if so you can refuse installation at profile setup. if you make a new profile, you can choose to install it there. then in microg settings there are some toggles for functionality
btw, which of your apps nead google services?
Seedvault worked fine for me when I moved phones last year.
I agree. Seedvault works but if you really use the project and its features as intended you’ll see problems I listed above which is not complete I’m just tired there are plenty more.
You’ll start to see the problems and the lack of value add from graphene. I’d feel much safer on a Linux machine and correct backups, under most threat models and opsecs, even without all the advanced security features than stuck locked into graphene as a half baked project. Which is saying something, and why I said it depends on your opsec and threat model I wasn’t bashing the project it just is not the end all be all right now.
The year of Linux is upon us. Soonish*
Its had more dev time across the board which is why I would choose it first and foremost. What it lacks in certain features its fundamentally more complete. Regardless of distro mostly.
And it doesn’t support US bands for TMobile
T-Mobile supports these bands:
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5G: n2/41/71/258/260/261
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5G,ER: n25
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4GLTE: B4/5/12/71
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4GLTE,ER: B25/66
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2G,GSM: B2
Fairphone 5 supports these bands:
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5G: n1/2/3/5/7/8/20/28/38/41/48/71/77/78
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5G,ER: n66
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4GLTE: B1/2/3/4/5/7/8/12/20/28/32/38/40/41/42/48/71
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4GLTE,ER: B66
It looks like the Fairphone 5 covers T-Mobile’s 5G Frequency Band 1 frequencies (bold), but Frequency Band 2 is not covered (italic).
Regarding 4G, the Fairphone 5 covers all LTE networks (bold) except for extended range band B25 (italics).
it doesn’t support US bands for TMobile
It covers some, but not all.
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For 4G. 5G is fine.
Was thinking the same thing. Not Graphenes fault though but a failing of OEMs to provide what’s necessary.
It has CalyxOS support though. A decent alternative.
Agreed. I was debating between CalyxOS and GrapheneOS, and I ended up w/ GrapheneOS because I ended up picking the Pixel 8 due to the long software support cycle. If I picked any other phone, I would’ve ended up w/ CalyxOS.
Both are great projects.
Indeed. I am currently waiting for Calyx to be released for my phone, it’s a Moto g84, and support seems to be coming along nicely.
I probably would have picked a pixel if I could, but they are not available for sale in my country.
no other manufacturer than google ever will have graphnene os support. their requirements cannot be met unless you are a tech gian, and with exceptionally good connections to the hardware manufacturers
Fairphone brand is basically saying to everyone “Hey look at our generic Android phone with everything you need from Google, including AI stuff and data collection” and when you ask if you can have a privacy friendly features they basically say “Nope, we just do a phone with replaceable parts, that’s all. Don’t ask for more”
And it would be such good marketing strategy “replaceable parts + privacy”
At least someone commented CalyxOS supports it which seems to be a good alternative to GrapheneOS
You could always go for /e/os though
Edit: Didn’t know it was this bad…
/e/os is a security dumpster fire. It’s even worse than stock Android. Stay away from it.
Can you explain?
Every other version of Android gets security updates out within a couple weeks of release at most.
/e/OS users are lucky if they get them within a couple months.
No offense, but that’s not what a security dumpster fire is. Security updates are important, of course, but they are also not the biggest deal.
In fact, I bet that the vast majority of users (on Android or otherwise) are lagging way behind in updates anyway.
That is not the only issue, it’s just one of the more major ones that shouldn’t be dismissed like it’s nothing. Another major one is the unlocked bootloader. You can take a look at all the Android ROMS here.
I think people should treat carefully when changing the OS of a mobile device. Changing your OS to something less secure just because you want to shove it to Google and Apple is not enough to warrant it. Better to stay with something safe that you know than with something insecure like /e/OS.
Luckily we have Graphene so you can actually switch to a more secure and private OS that is not made by an American corporation hungry for data.
/e/OS has official builds for the fairphones, you can re-lock the bootloader there, afaik. At least according to this: https://doc.e.foundation/devices/FP5/install
You can also buy the phone directly with /e/OS pre-installed & closed bootloader, from what I read on the fairphone website.
I am not dismissing it, I am saying that is not as big as you make it to be. Most users lag behind in updates anyway, besides using minimal and trusted applications, the outside exposure to exploitation is relatively small, for a device without a public address. I am not the one APTs are going to use the SMS no-click 0-day against.
Similarly for the bootloader issue. The kind of attacks mitigated by this are not in most people threat models. They just are not. As someone else wrote, it’s possible to relock the bootloader anyway with official builds (such as my FP3). But anyway, even for myself the chance that my phone gets modified by physical access without my knowledge is a fraction of a fraction compared to the chance that someone will snatch the phone in my hand while unlocked, for example (a recent pattern).
If these two issues are what prompts you to call a “security dumpster fire”, I would say we at least have very different risk perceptions.
So an OS that boasts about the “privacy” it offers… Doesn’t need routine and consistent security updates?
Sure thing bud, keep going on like you know what you’re talking about.
Generally speaking privacy and security are related but not really linked to each other. Google services might be very secure, but a privacy nightmare for example. In this particular case, even more, because the chances that using a “googled” phone will mean data collection (I.e. privacy issues) are almost certain, while the risks we are talking about are much more niche and - as I elaborated on another comment - in my opinion not really in most people threat model.
I would like to hear your perspective instead, because I am not really into using authority arguments, but as a security engineer I believe to at least understand well the issue with security updates, vulnerabilities and exploits. So yes, I do think to know what I am talking about.
good on you for asking the question. OP does not know what he is talking about
Thanks for the answer. How does it compare against other Android forks in terms of security update speed?
Also, isn’t Fairphone once also criticised for falling behind on Android security updates or was I misremembering this?
Also correct, though I am not particularly familiar with Fairphone. Seems like they are down to bimonthly updates, if that.
*We are including two months of security patching in a bi-monthly maintenance release.
If they just didn’t drop the headphone jack.
How else would they push their mediocre reviewed Bluetooth headsets and ear buds?
Ah, that’s a dealbreaker for me
my phone has a headphone jack, my phone before that had a headphone jack. Wanna guess how often I used it? Zero because I have decent bluetooth headphones
I use my backup headphones when my Bluetooth headset has run out of battery
Okay? You’re not the one asking for a headphone jack tho??? Pointless comment.
I use mine. Bluetooth is great and all, but it’s still not the same quality as a hard-line. And they also run out of batteries.
my phone has a headphone jack, my phone before that had a headphone jack. Wanna guess how often I used it? Zero because I have decent bluetooth headphones
That’s just like your opinion man
My last phone had a headphone jack. Wanna guess how often I used it? All the time! And that was despite having decent Bluetooth headphones.
I loved wearing my cans when mowing the lawn because it cut down on the noise, and I also used them when laying in bed since they had much better audio. I would use my Bluetooth headphones the rest of the time because they were more convenient.
My new phone doesn’t have headphone jack, and I’m super bummed.
So now you still do the exact same things but with a little dongle, right?
USB-C to headphone jack dongles suck. You lose them easily, you can’t charge your phone if they’re connected and if you disconnect your headphones the device still behaves as if they’re plugged in. It’s so much less convenient and on the other hand there’s just no downside to having a dedicated headphone jack, so I still don’t get why they’re no longer including them.
As well as all your points (which I 100% agree with), my other issue with these dongles is simply that they stick out way more. If I buy a pair of headphones with an angled connector, I can plug them in and wrap the wire a little bit and then when the phone’s in my pocket, the wire takes up basically no space and doesn’t get smushed about by my leg.
With a dongle, I need an extra couple inches of vertical space, and because the wire/connectors are sticking directly out the phone, they get bent all over the place. Absolutely crap design. Yes 90 degree USB-C to headphone jacks exist but they take up way more space than just a headphone jack.
You lose them easily
Just leave them connected to the headphones.
you can’t charge your phone if they’re connected
Dongles with an additional usb port exist.
if you disconnect your headphones the device still behaves as if they’re plugged in.
Again, leave the dongle connected to the headphones, not the phone.
It’s so much less convenient
It is less convenient, but I’d argue not by all that much. More importantly it’s not any less convenient for the vast majority who are already only using Bluetooth.
there’s just no downside to having a dedicated headphone jack
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It’s an additional, and to most people superfluous, point for water ingress. Water damage is the most common type of damage in phones.
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It takes up space which could be utilised otherwise, like with a slightly larger battery or larger speakers or camera modules.
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It’s an additional part which needs to be manufactured, stocked, installed and purchased. Extra cost which only benefits a few. This is especially important to Fairphone in particular because they don’t use off-the-shelf components and promise to supply replacement parts pretty much indefinitely. I.e. Fairphone would have to design a custom module and then have that module in stock and manufactured specifically for them for the lifetime of each of their devices. That’s not a trivial expense.
It’s an additional […] point for water ingress.
the whole back panel is a big point of water ingress when that is not glued shut hard
It takes up space which could be utilised otherwise, like with a slightly larger battery or larger speakers or camera modules.
I never needed the additional camera modules, and there were phones with single camera module that made very nice images. the jack is also often at the top of the device where the battery doesn’t reach, but in my phone there’s also enough place for it between the bottom and the battery for a jack connector. in a fairphone
It’s an additional part which needs to be manufactured, stocked, installed and purchased. Extra cost which only benefits a few.
exact same opinion about multiple camera modules. nobody really needs them.
I can’t have them connected to my headphones all the time because I connect headphones to other devices that all have a fucking headphone jack.
- It’s an additional, and to most people superfluous, point for water ingress. Water damage is the most common type of damage in phones.
I’ve had watertight phones with a headphone jack over a decade ago.
- It takes up space which could be utilised otherwise, like with a slightly larger battery or larger speakers or camera modules.
Yes. Anything you add to a phone is a tradeoff. No shit. These points are what is usually used to justify the lack of a jack. But maybe, just maybe, they don’t save as much money as they make with selling wireless headphones and this is just an excuse? Especially the big companies like Apple or Samsung that sell their own peripherals? And this whole thing is just an excuse to sell overpriced gadgets that need to be replaced every few years because of their batteries? Maybe, just maybe, it’d be valid if consumers still had a choice and could pick phones with or without a jack and would have to pay for the luxury of using decent headphones with a few milliamperehours?
- It’s an additional part which needs to be manufactured, stocked, installed and purchased. Extra cost which only benefits a few. This is especially important to Fairphone in particular because they don’t use off-the-shelf components and promise to supply replacement parts pretty much indefinitely. I.e. Fairphone would have to design a custom module and then have that module in stock and manufactured specifically for them for the lifetime of each of their devices. That’s not a trivial expense.
Manufacturing a phone is not a trivial expense. Removing features is a business decision and a headphone jack costs money but doesn’t earn any whereas they can produce more cheaply without one. I get it. It’s just that doing so requires you to buy and use battery powered headphones that are much less sustainable than traditional magnets tied to a cable. How a company that lives off its promise to safe the world jumps on that wagon is a miracle to me. Companies that remove headphones don’t care about audio quality (which is why Sony still produces phones with audio jacks, I guess) or sustainability. Which is odd for a company like fp.
requires you to buy and use battery powered headphones
This is simply false though, we’d agreed that you are required to buy and use a dongle, and that this is an added inconvenience. But you are not required to switch to wireless headphones and your old cans haven’t suddenly become useless. People still have a choice between wired and wireless, wired has just become a little less convenient, that’s all. I completely agree with you that people shouldn’t go out buying new gadgets if their old stuff is still functional, but you can just continue using your old headphones if you get a new phone if you buy a dongle with it. Inconvenient yes, but not the end for wired headphones.
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Yup. If anything, they should add a second USB-C connector. Much more versatile and you can still charge your phone if one of them dies.
These flaky, but simultaneously bulky headphone connectors need to die. They’re inferior in pretty much every way imaginable.
Every day the bait gets lower and lower effort
Quickly checking if you’re an actual human or just a bot I came across this comment of yours:
I have blocked 264 users, 9 communities and 4 instances and it’s made Lemmy much better for me toxicity wise. Whenever a debate gets toxic or someone starts just insulting or discussing in bad faith or I just get a bad vibe from them - I block.
Guess I’ll take your advice then.
I’m going to lose that dongle. You say further down that I can just leave them connected, but I use my headphones with more than my phone (laptop, desktop), and those other devices have a headphone jack. Leaving it plugged in to my phone sucks too, for obvious reasons.
I don’t care about water ingress. I’m happy to give up water resistance and have a slightly thicker phone if it means I get a headphone jack, bonus points if it’s easier to open the phone for repairs.
Ok I use my wired headphones
I just have a dap that can receive bluetooth. More battery life, drives literally anything to very loud, 4.4mm out and can hold it’s own music library and play it without eating phones battery or memory.
I used mine all the time because I hate using bluetooth even though I have expensive bluetooth headphones, I have now cancelled you out
My decent Bluetooth headphones have the option to plug in a headphone cable to use them wired. I use it occasionally so I can reduce audio latency, which can be useful with gaming…and essential with rhythm games.
Boo this man!
…are they booing me, or are they booing headphones?
You. They’re booing you.
Help me, Smithers!
😔
Wanna know how many times I played a piano in the past 20 years?
Zero. Clearly they shouldn’t exist.
No, but maybe you should re-gift it to someone who does…
You’re not making sense.
Your position was that someone else is wrong to desire audio jacks, because you personally don’t need one after spaffing money on some Bluetooth earphones.
My point – which I thought was very obvious, but apparently you missed it – was that just because you don’t see the value of something doesn’t mean others don’t or that it shouldn’t exist.
I don’t have a piano, and I don’t know why you think I do.
My entire metaphor is that I don’t play or have a piano, but I recognise that it’s stupid for me to discourage others from having them solely because I personally don’t have or want one.
I’m a bit confused by your metaphor then (and thanks for the constructive insults, brings me back to the old reddit days…), since why take issue with something you dont own or use in the first place? Is the piano the headjack, or is it the bluetooth?
I didn’t insult you, I remarked that you didn’t appear to have understood my comment, and by the looks of it you still don’t.
Apologies if you’re upset by my comment. That was not my intent. I was just pointing out the absurdity of your judgemental comment.
I’m not the one taking issue with something I don’t own. That’s my entire point. You are discouraging someone from wanting something just because you personally don’t value it.
The piano is the headphone jack.
You don’t need a headphone jack, and feel the need to disparage others who do. “I don’t use a headphone jack, so you shouldn’t want a phone with one.”
Similarly, I don’t need a piano. However, I don’t go around telling people they shouldn’t want/play one, because I recognise that the things I want in my life are different to the things other people want in theirs.
It’s more like a new keyboard comes out and people all complain that it’s not a piano.
This is fine if you don’t care about having the best audio quality and lowest latency possible.
not just that. with a jack, you can use your phone as a perfect mic for your PC. its also better in terms of privacy as you don’t blast “IM HERE” signals that every other shop has a tracking device for logging them. I would guess majority of bluetooth audio devices don’t even support mac address randomization
I would guess majority of bluetooth audio devices don’t even support mac address randomization
Wouldn’t that be a nightmare for pairing? The device wakes and tries to connect to the last device it was paired to, only to find unknown vendors
mac randomization is a defined thing in the BLE standard (afaik bluetooth classic does not have it, but maybe that changed in BT 5.1?). It’s not truly random, it involves cryptography so that paired devices can recognize each other in the end
Ah interesting, thanks for context
I feel like latency only matters if you’re realtime gaming. In any other situation the video just syncs to the audio.
As for quality AptX-HD is decent for low bitrates even at 24-bit, and LDAC remains excellent for anything higher.
Unless you’re listening to high-res FLAC (in which case, god help your earphone impedance when listening to normal songs), I doubt the loss is audible
Good for you.
That’s cool. Let me know when it gets support for GrapheneOS and finds it’s headphone jack again.
The answer is likley never, GOS devs dont trust Fairphone devs (due to poor security practices) and Fairphone devs are unwilling (in some cases unable) to meet the extremely high standards for GOS.
Big red flag:
Doesn’t that basically equate to “yep, this is an android phone?”
Yup. My current one is dying and I’m using it almost always wired to a charger or battery. I don’t care how badly they try to waste my battery, I’m not buying a new Android phone ever. If this one dies, I’m prepared to not use a phone until there’s a reasonably priced Linux phone.
Just replace the battery then. Most phone shops have the ability and tools to do it in about an hour to 3 hours.
I’m afraid. Lol phones with non replaceable batteries suck.
They are replaceable, it just takes some tools and work, both of which you can get at the phone repair shop.
What a non sequitur.
GrapheneOS doesn’t have AI crap.
I’d just install another OS to begin with. But again, I’d reaaally like it to be GrapheneOS. And then again, Pixels also come with all that crap (and much more) enabled by default.
Graphene doesn’t. The way I see it is like buying a laptop with pre-installed Windows, and replacing the OS.
… That’s because it comes with vanilla android, unless you buy the e/OS version or flash it yourself
I really wish this was available in the US. I’ve found myself able to hang on to devices longer and longer. So this would be perfect. I’m only charging my battery to 80% and discharging it to 30% before charging it again just to prolong the life of the battery because that’s the first thing that dies on most devices. Having a user replaceable battery again would be an absolute godsend.
This is a 50% DoD and is considered best possible practice to prevent lithium-ion dendrite formation.
Updoot for good advice.
Proof:
If you don’t mind clarifying, what do you mean by DoD?
Depth of Discharge, sorry – 0 to 100 would be a 100% depth (the entire battery), 30 to 80 is 50%.
What kind of software creates this plot?
Looks like AccuBattery.
It’s AccuBattery
Missed opportunity to call it “AkkuBattery” for all the dual language pun enjoyers out there 🎩
ThanCC!
The really nice thing is that the larger phone batteries get the more you get to use at 50% depth of discharge. My phone is 5,000 mAh and so I get to use 2,500 mAh of it. Once average phones start getting 5,500 mAh, that will mean I will be able to use 2,750 mAh. 250mAh may not sound like a lot, but it can go a decently long way.
This is a 50% DoD and is considered best possible practice to prevent lithium-ion dendrite formation.
Not entirely true. “Best possible” would be left plugged in and charged to 50%. Next best would be 49-51%. Then 48-52% and so on.
Also it’s not that difficult or expensive to swap a battery and not really worth the stress, in my opinion.
What did you actually gain here? With my Pixel 7 it looks almost the same with 3.1% capacity loss per year without taking any special care of my battery. Is my phone an outlier or does it just not matter? And I almost exclusively charge with wireless.
I charge wired (high speed, 18-22W). Wireless is known to be a lot slower and theoretically gentler on the battery.
I also use the phone heavily, like a computer, I’m a “power user”, so my battery thrashing is higher than average.
Us having the same durability lost on our engine despite me driving double the miles is a good analogy.
To my knowledge wireless charging is harder on the battery because of the heat it produces.
I’m interested in this one also. I like the look of it. Currently a long-time Pixel user, but I’m open to other options. It will take a truly good camera to pull me away, though.
Sometimes last year Marquez Brownlee (I think it was him, I don’t think it was Dave2D) was conducting a blind test among his audience which Photos they thought looked best. Some top brands were jumping up and down from one test scenario to another but the Fairphone ended up in the midfield constantly. True, that’s not a glowing recommendation of the camera but at least an insurance that one doesn’t get utter trash either.
Do you happen to know whether this was before or after the camera update? The camera has been noticeably improved at some point.
Not off the top of my head, sorry.
Do you recall which ones scored the highest?
iirc, it’s typically the pixel a series, normal pixel series, the most expensive iPhone, and the Samsung flagship (or smth like that)
The Pixels tend to give really punchy contrast which a lot of people like
Not off the top of my head but I distinctly remember that the Pixel A phone scored higher than the flagship Pixel model.
I would need to look the video up but I’m also between appointments, so I can comment for a bit but not do research.
could habe been this one?
That’s honestly one thing I’m really glad about. I’m legally blind, so pictures don’t honestly matter that much to me, and so I could really give a fuck less what the camera looks like as long as it functions well enough to act as a magnifier for me to read small print on things occasionally.
Like if I go pick up one of those frozen pizzas from the store and I need to read the box to know what temperature to set the oven to and how long to put it in. I use the camera to just zoom in on the print and read it and then leave the camera.
the camera is average. Don’t buy this phone for the camera
Are you using something to automate that? If so what? Does it require root?
Several Android manufacturers have their own settings in the OS for battery longevity (automatic schedule based smart charging, or charging limits)
Don’t think it’s native in Android. Charging limits need support in the charging controller chip, plus driver support in the OS.
So my device settings have the functionality built in to stop charging automatically when the battery hits a certain percentage. And so I have set it to stop charging automatically at 81%. I also use BatteryBot Pro from F-Droid to alert me when the battery rises above 80% or drops below 30%
Yeah, same here honestly. For real, I wish it was available in the US too
There’s other phones with user replaceable batteries. I looked it up a month or so ago. They’re not as ethical as fairphone, but still better than my drawer of working phones with dead batteries.
Phones like the Galaxy Active which have terrible hardware to make them entirely unappealing outside of that one crucial feature. They do this on purpose.
Murena does ship them to the USA, but with /e/OS preinstalled, which is great if you’re into privacy and degoogling. I don’t know how it works with US carriers though. Feel free to ask them on their forum, community.e.foundation
/e/OS doesnt interest me because its far to iphone(esk) in design. Though i might be able to flash LineageOS instead. I also want nothing to do with Google Play Services or even Micro-G. I even think Micro-G is too much of a compromise and won’t use it. If an app won’t run because Google Play Services doesn’t exist, then I don’t run that app. If I don’t get notifications because Google Play Services doesn’t exist, then I don’t get notifications. So be it.
its far to iphone(esk) in design
It’s far too iPhone-esque in design
“It’s” has the apostrophe because it’s “it” + "is
“too” has two o’s when there’s an excess of something. More stuff = more o’s!
“esque” is uh…just how it’s spelt
iPhone capitalization is just their branding.
I only commented to help with “esque”, but saw other things I could help with. Knowledge is power!
It’s pretty open hardware I’m sure it would be very easy to flash it to Fairphone’s OS
I don’t like their default launcher either, it’s indeed very iphon-y. I just installed another launcher and that’s it. It’s essentially Android so that’s no problem. I also disabled microg entirely, which is possible.
They ship fairphone 4 US, but not 5
Oh dang. That’s true.
I hope Graphene eventually shifts to support the fairphones. Doubtful, but it’d be perfect
No, it’s the other way around. Fairphone needs to implement the things Graphene requires.
Por que no los dos?
GrapheneOS can’t add hardware features to an existing phone. That’s why no los dos.
Sure, but once that’s in place, Graphene has to make efforts on their part. It’s not instantly compatible unless the hardware is exactly identical to a supported device. That’s the point I was making. I forget sometimes when being flippant that I have to explain every detail so that overly pedantic people can follow…my bad…
Sure. My point is that GrapheneOS can’t do much until Fairphone does their part.
If we could get a Fairphone with GrapheneOS, that would be the perfect phone for me. Repairability & the most secure and private Android. Sign me up!
Hows their secure boot?
I wish they could implement the parts of the Pixel phones that allow GrapheneOS to be used.
What parts are these? I’ve always wondered what this was about, why the pixel was the only phone that could support GrapheneOS
The last I looked was that the Pixel was the only phone that allowed you to load a custom rom and relock the bootloader. Other phones kept the bootloader unlocked once it was modded.
So, graphene could be put on those phones if the devs wanted to do it, but it would be less secure since the bootloader would remain unlocked.
Also, supporting a small line a phones is probably infinitely easier than a range, of devices, but it would be nice to have another option. Especially now that the Fairphone pice is reasonable.
The last I looked was that the Pixel was the only phone that allowed you to load a custom rom and relock the bootloader. Other phones kept the bootloader unlocked once it was modded.
That is not the case. SHIFTmq, Motorola and Fairphone allow the bootloader to be relocked with a custom rom. There are many requirements the Fairphone lacks for GrapheneOS, but relocking the bootloader is not one of them.
Thanks! I guess what I read before was either old or just wrong.
The Fairphone can be locked after flashing a custom rom. /e/-OS is officially supported. You can even buy it from them with /e/ preinstalled. iode-OS also works. I don’t know about Graphene OS, but tbh, I don’t see the benefit of Graphene OS for the average user. /e/ has built in privacy features, is google-free and runs MicroG as alternative to Google Play Services. Most apps run fine. You can even use your apps that you purchased from the PlayStore.
I’ve been using Fairphone 5 with /e/-OS for over a year and love it.
/e/ has built in privacy features
/e/ uses a for profit 3rd party for unencrypted backups. That alone should be a big red flag.
is google-free and runs MicroG
So it runs google. MicroG just limits what data is sent to google.
You can even use your apps that you purchased from the PlayStore.
You can do the same with aurora store. That’s available on just about every phone.
You can do the same with aurora store. That’s available on just about every phone.
not if the app attempts to verify its license through the play store. you need microg for that, or patch it
Well even graphene os still runs a version of Android. So there is still some goggle code in that. But ripping oit google play, amd various goggle services means goggle doesn’t track you with those. Yeah if you still ise gmail and log into toutube every day they will.
there is still some goggle code in that.
But that code is open source, and it has been verified that it dosent track you.
It a perfectly usable Android for the average user. Everything works out of the boy. If it is not for you, fine. Buy a Pixel.
for the average user.
So we are talking about an average user, who
- fully understands the appeal of a degoogled Phone
- Willingly spends extra money for a fairphone
- is able to migrate away from google services to /e/'s services
- Is willing and able to troubleshoot any problems that MicroG has
- is willing to fix not working banking apps
- but somehow can’t use a simple web installer from Calyx
Tell me, is this average user in the room with us right now?
Everything works out of the boy.
So does (and does not) with Calix or Graphene
Buy a Pixel.
I think you don’t get what I’m talking about.
-It takes a base level of understanding why you would buy a Fairphone (or any degoogled phone)
- it takes a base level of understanding phones to be able to use a degoogled one
- If you already have that knowledge, you might as well just take an extra 5 minutes and use the web installer for calyx since it is literally the same AND has less vendor lockin than /e/
Edit: You want an average user friendly ROM? Just use Lineage for gods sake.
Exactly. Even if I wanted /e/, I would re-flash when I got it, because the reason I want /e/ is because I don’t trust the OEM.
It’s the same way with desktops, I see zero value in buying a laptop w/ Linux pre-installed because I’m just going to reinstall when I get it anyway.
In 4 years I have never (and will never) used any service from /e/. There is no vendor lock whatsoever. That’s fully optional.
Points 3, 4 and 5 in your list are moot IMHO.
Also
It takes a base level of understanding why you would buy a Fairphone
It doesn’t really. “Phone is repairable and X can help me”, “they pay the makers fair wages” are not really complex value propositions that require some (technical) understanding.
The point of /e/ and similar distributions is that you can buy a phone with it (average user will never reflash) and just have a phone that doesn’t use Google (it does, for the amount that doesn’t require you to do extra technical stuff and have a sane user experience at the same time).
That said, calyx seems a great alternative and so are iode. I think the advantages of one over the other (for my brief search) are quite small.
I support all people around me when it comes to tech. I help them with their laptops and phones. If I get the chance to install Linux or de-googled Android, I do it, knowing that everything will work as they expect.
There is no baseknowlege required. People will buy what is readily available to them. A brand new Fairphone with e-OS preinstalled is readily available to them. And if the user experience is basically the same, they don’t even need care that their phone is more private.
/e/-OS is based on Lineage, with some stuff pre-installed to make it easier for users. I don’t get your problem. It is basically a distro. You are saying “why use Ubuntu when they can use Arch”. Doesn’t make sense at all.
lemmy is toxic as fuck. Same shit like every other site.
e-OS is said to have the worst security of pretty much all Android distributions. Dunno if this is a fact, but apparently the upgrade schedules are not great.
They are usually a month behind
https://www.kuketz-blog.de/weshalb-grapheneos-aktuell-nur-google-pixel-geraete-unterstuetzt/
(From an Interview - The relevant parts are in English)
Security seems not easy.
I mean, you could use CalyxOS
It dosent have such things as 2 factor pin auth for fingerprint, but its the closest to Graphene
Not quite the same. The big thing with GrapheneOS is it can run the actual Google services, but sandboxed. Organic Maps is better than Google Maps in everyway, but it’s routes are so much worse because it has no traffic into to go on. It’s an anticompetitive network effect, but it’s hard to fight without law makers.
Edit: Ok, it is good, but the main thing I like about is the maps can be setup to be as good as ones you’d manually navigate by. A bit like UK’s Ordnance Survey maps.
Organic Maps is better than Google Maps in everyway
It’s really not, here are a few more:
- no reviews for businesses - that’s a huge reason people use Maps
- you have to manually download maps you want to see, and repeat w/ every update
- lots of missing info, especially where I live, and especially businesses
- no satellite images or street view - OSM has it though
That said, I use Organic Maps almost exclusively, and I put in the time to add missing info where I can. I’ve probably added hundreds of places for my area. Basically, when I go somewhere new, if it’s not in OSM, I take a few pictures and add the place when I get home, and I’ll put in the effort to enter hours, phone number, etc from their website. It’s a pain, but hopefully someone down the line appreciates that.
All of that info exists in GM though, so the only reason for me to use OM is stubbornness. OM is fantastic, but it’s hardly “better than Google Maps in every way,” in fact it’s probably worse in most ways. However, I prefer it and will keep using it because I refuse to use Google services.
Ok, I accept all that, but the maps just are better to me. I grew up with the UK Ordnance Survey maps, and that’s kind of what I want from my maps.
I’ll amend.
I would totally be interested if they had solid Linux support, such as postmarketOS or mobian. Those systems continue to get updates long after most Android devices stop supplying updates, so it would fit really well with a repairable phone. It shouldn’t be the default, but it would be awesome if they helped the Linux phone community make it the best supported hardware for the various Linux phone projects.
According to the postmarketOS wiki, audio is completely broken, so you have to use Bluetooth. That kind of sucks.
Bring back the headphone jack & we’ll be happy.
Next up, make the phone compatible with Linux OSs
We can but hope. I have a dongle that plugs into my charging point to make it a headphone jack, but it’s not the same
I recently went through that dongle buying experience. Having to get the correct DAC and amplifier chipset so the sound won’t be too low is annoying. For the record I ended up going with one that has the CX31993 DAC and the MAX97220 amplifier, it doesn’t have a real name so I’ll just give a link: https://aliexpress.com/item/1005008755907868.html. It is a bit louder than my first impulsive buy, but I haven’t tested the microphone yet.
Thanks for the link!
No thanks, i’ve broken every single one. A dap with bluetooth receiver works better.
What do you do to break them?
In my forties and never broken a headphone jack, headphones, cable, or in fact anything like that. I tend to take care of my stuff and not treat it in such a way as I’m going to break it.
Put it in my jeans pocket and move about my day as usual. Cycling broke them in a year, reliably.
But the presence of a headphone jack doesn’t prevent you from using Bluetooth?
It doesn’t and for many people the jack dying isn’t an issue.
This would’ve been my new phone if it had a headphone jack.
From an environmental standpoint it doesn’t make any sense to drop it. More batteries, more e waste
They sell earbuds, that’s all you need to know why it doesn’t have a jack anymore.
Really sad they dropped it
Yup I’ll stick with Xperia
I was trying so hard to buy one but Sony did not make them available at all in my country. The only way to buy an Xperia or a Zenfone 10 is through shady importer websites and you get no warranty.
I’m using this phone right now and I love it. it feels solid. Im using a degoogled ROM and it just works, there seems to be a lot of people pressing for graphene os specifically and discrediting the phone for what it is. its so easy to take apart and cheaply repair its great. it’s perfect for folk who want a decent smartphone that you dont have to worry about being thrown around. sure it’s not perfect but it is still a very good
I have been shopping for a rom for my FP. Which are you running?
I use CalyxOS on mine. It has microG all working by default so if you need that sort of thing it’s probably the easiest way to get it up and running
calyx os is what I use
What’s the cost to replace a cracked screen?
You can buy the OLED display as a spare part for 100 EUR on the official website. https://shop.fairphone.com/shop/category/spare-parts-4?category=4&filters=31
Yeah, that plus labor is 80% of what I typically pay for a whole brand new phone… I know why it is this way, but it really is this way and that makes it very hard for low volume players to enter the market.
Smartphones of this price would be low quality, impossible to self epair, and very likely made with very poor social and environmental conditions. It’s the opposite of what Fairphone does, so the comparison is not possible.
The heck are you talking about? If you change it yourself it’s still 100€. And you won’t find any decent smartphone at this price.
I typically pay US$250 for unlocked smartphones, and they are fine for me, my wife, my kids, friends and family…
If the screen is 100€ and the labor to install it competently (I suppose this is a DIY serviceable phone, but the screen?) is another 75€, that’s 80% of what I would be paying for a brand new phone.
I’m waiting on a Framework Phone.
Do you really think they’ll make one?
Yes eventually they will. Might be still 5 years away tho
I hope so, and I hope they make it compatible with regular Linux, like postmarketOS or Mobian. Make sure all the core phone features work properly (calls, SMS/MMS, data, audio, sensors, etc), then let the Linux community go nuts on it.
I’d pay a premium for that, and I’d probably pick up a Framework laptop as well. I currently use an old Thinkpad (circa 2018), and I’m trying to make that last until Framework has an option for a 13-14" laptop with insane battery life (ARM or RISC-V is probably fine), or at least has a keyboard that has a Trackpoint and physical mouse buttons like my Thinkpad. But if they make a phone, I might just lower my standards a bit to keep everything in the family.
Only 400€ to go until I can afford it.
I have the fairphone 4 and have had no issues. As long as a fairphone exists I don’t see any reason I should switch.
Have you had to replace any parts yet?
I had to replace parts on my FP5. It fell on very bad asphalt at speed whilst cycling in a foreign country. The glass on the camera modules scattered. Display protector broke and the case got some good damage. I was instantly calmed realising it is a FairPhone and knowing I could order replacement parts.
Repairs were trivial and it feels good to have created just a tiny amount of e-waste instead of a large amount. The black aluminium case has some war wounds (scratches) reminding me of the trip.
Knowing it’s so easy to repair, do you think it’s worth bothering with a case and/or screen protector?
If you hate cases so much, sure. But why create e waste and waste your money when you can avoid that by using a case?
FWIW, I have the FP3 for now more than 4 years. I have only replaced the battery 6 months ago. A case would have been extra waste (to produce the case itself) in my case, and probably will be trashed after as it might not fit the next phone.
If you can keep it safe then cool. I cannot take that risk as my current screen protector is already cracked a little within a year lol.
You defentently need a case for the FP5. Without its very slippery.
I’d likely use a case in this instance. I remember dropping the Pixel 5 several times for that reason.
I don’t bother with a case for this reason, haven’t broken anything so far. Just replaced the battery a couple times.
Do you use their OS?
I really want this to come to the US as well…
Is this phone also more secure?
The problem we are running into right now is Apple and Google are colluding with the US government over fascism and they are supporting their Nazi regime
They have all the power and they can change all of these services overnight, they can track you and everything and you will have no idea and no way to get rid of it
We really need an open replacement. Phones are now used for everything
Is this phone also more secure?
Probably not.
Apple & Google have spent considerable amounts of time building out hardware security infrastructure for their products that I find it extremely unlikely Fairphone would have been able to match.
For example, the popular alternative Android OS GrapheneOS only supports Google Pixels, because: (Emphasis added by me)
“There are currently no other devices meeting even the most basic security requirements while running an alternate OS. GrapheneOS is very interested in supporting a non-Pixel brand, but the vast majority of Android OEMs do not take security seriously. Samsung takes security almost as seriously as Google, but they deliberately cripple their devices when unlock them to install another OS and don’t allow an alternate OS to use important security features. If Samsung permitted GrapheneOS to support their devices properly, many of their phones would be the closest to meeting our requirements. They’re currently missing the very important hardware memory tagging feature, but only because it’s such a new feature”
If even Samsung, the only other phone brand on the market they consider close to meeting their standards, doesn’t support every modern hardware security feature, and deliberately cripples their security for alternate OS’s, as a multi billion dollar company, I doubt Fairphone has custom-built hardware security mechanisms for their phones to the degree that Google has.
Well yeah, because why would phone companies care? Consumers buy devices based on camera and display quality, not for security, privacy, etc. I just had a chat w/ a coworker about a Chinese device with an incredible camera and big battery, and I highly doubt it does anything but the bare minimum for security. It’s a cool piece of hardware, but a no-go for anyone that cares even a little about security updates.
I have a Pixel device because it has a long SW support cycle (Google promises at least 7 years), and I use GrapheneOS because it removes Google’s spyware crap. I’m not married to GrapheneOS or Pixel devices, I just need something where the software support will last at least longer than my desire to keep the device (about 4-5 years for me). I’ve ditched each of my last phones largely because they ran out of security update support, and that sucks.
I’d prefer a Linux phone w/ decent security features, but they don’t meet my minimum standards for things working (just need phone features to work properly, don’t need apps). The moment a Linux phone comes out than actually works properly and has reasonable security, I’ll switch. The FairPhone could be that, but it’s not, so I don’t have one.
how is pixel with graphene os ? does it completely remove all google spyware shit? or do they have some sort of hardware backdoor?
the reason I ask is because i have a motorola right now and it pisses me off immensely … there is this notification they keep pushing, “Activate Live Lock screen” which i don’t even know what it is, some background pictures crap. I uninstalled this app, but the notification remains. Like it’s not there always but keeps coming back every few days. this has been going on for months and i got so pissed i decided to contact support and complain there. they said, something along the lines of, we can connect remotely and do it for you. ( like disable, but they can’t disable because i went through every option on the phone, it cannot be disabled, it’s just bloatware) but their “we can do it for you remotely” got me thinking, backdoors, backdoors everywhere.
now i want a new phone lol and one that can support a custom firmware but installing custom firmwares on pretty much all phones is a nightmare.
but i also hate buying anything google, hence my question.
Agree. Calyx is also an option when GOS support ends , then lineage etc. Wish we had good working Linux phones but I have high hopes my pixel 7 will be my last android
I used a Fairphone 4 with /e/ and it was good. Not great, but useable. I expect the hardware bugs I ran into (using the camera only worked like 20 times before the phone needed a restart, Bluetooth randomly not working) to be ironed out by now. Currently on an old Samsung and it is more solid, but I also liked the environmentalism with the fairphone. Anyone with a Fairphone 5 and something like a glucose sensor thats in constant use?
I’ve owned the 4, for a couple of years. Was really excited to get one.
Parts have been unavailable for a long time when I needed them. The battery is pretty dead after 2 years meanwhile my pixel which is about 5 years old still going strong. The os is the buggiest experience I’ve ever had, sluggish, going from portrait the landscape kills UI formatting if it switches to power save it’ll skip a video. Boot loops constantly.
Never again I’m afraid it’s neat I could fix things with it so quickly but they fail hard past that.
Example navigation buttons have just covered the voyager ui
