- cross-posted to:
- thebadwebsite@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- thebadwebsite@lemmy.world
[characters surround a flowchart]
Do you agree with me ideologically?\
- No: Then you are not a leftist\
- Yes: Proceed
Did you ever disagree with me online?\ - Yes: Then you are not a leftist\
- No: Proceed
Have you ever read theory?\ - No: Then you are not a leftist\
- Yes: Proceed
Did you reach the same conclusions as me?
No: Then you are not a leftist
Yes: Proceed
Do you believe in left unity?
Yes: ??? -> just kidding -> loop back to the same question
No: Proceed
Are you to my left or to my right ideologically?
Right: Then you are not a leftist
Left: I hate you because you are a tankie -> Bruh -> Then you are not a leftist
We agree: I hate you because you are a liberal -> Wait what -> Then you are not a leftist
https://thebad.website/comic/true_leftism_flowchart
I feel like the left in the US is almost seen as center by people in other countries. The overton window has drifted a lot to the right along the years
Here in Norway, Bernie and AOC would be considered center. Even our conservative party would be considered radical left by Fox News.
In the US, the overton window is so weirdly deformed that it’s not even on a building anymore. It somehow ended up hovering mid-air a short walk away from the nearest wall.
I like how I’m considered a liberal and a tankie by different people here
On this website alone I’ve been called a lib, tankie, anarkiddie, russian bot, Chinese bot, Russian psyoperative, and fascist.
They can’t all be true lol.
My takes are things like “We should understand the material and political realities behind the actions of the USSR so we can replicate the triumphs and avoid the tragedies, some things the Chinese government does are pretty good and people are broadly very satisfied with their government there, western powers feeding Ukranian men into a meat grinder to weaken Russia is bad actually and conscription is evil, governance committees that cannot be held accountable by the people they govern without violent revolt are bound to hurt the people and wander astray from their purpose, and so called ‘liberal democracies’ are neither really”
I get the tankie label a lot, moreso on Reddit, but sometimes on Lemmy too.
You’ll get the label for such burning hot (?) takes as “the cold war wasn’t about good vs evil” or “I don’t support NATO” or “Cuba did pretty good given its circumstances actually”, some people let the CIA live rent free in their head and really do believe anything to their left is automatically authoritarian.
I hate authoritarianism though :( I even wrote an entire manifesto on how the USSR went wrong when Lenin purposefully ignored Marx’s remarks on radical recallability of vanguard party members back when I was a lil wee revolutionary teenage lad, before the neoliberal 2000s crushed the revolutionary spirit of the millenial youth.
reddit has always been a cesspool, the reddit sentiment is that you only believe in communism if you are a teenager trying to be edgy, and if you are not that you are obviously a troll
Yeah, I scroll smugideologyman on reddit sometimes and see that.
On some irish subreddits I see people calling our president a tankie for things like saying that sanctions on syria aren’t helping the situation there, or condemning kneecap for not speaking against the cuban government when they visited the island.
Yeah, I scroll smugideologyman on reddit sometimes and see that.
Case in point,

kneecap
I love kneecap btw.
Don’t care for their music, but they’re beyond based humans and I sincerely wish them the best.
History will remember them fondly.
I generally feel that someone is a tankie when they become emotional about some topic that is not worth the emotion as if you thinking something slightly differently is a personal attack.
What do you mean with NATO? Other than the US being currently involved, I am pretty neutral about its existance.
Also, isn’t cuba quite authoritarian?
NATO is a coalition of imperialist countries, designed to protect them from backlash from the global south, and to isolate and break up communism.
Cuba is a state, so by definition it’s a monopoly on violence. It’s also democratically run by the Cuban working classes. You can call that “authoritarian” in that it’s a tool to oppress the capitalists, landlords, and fascists, but it’s also democratic and uplifting for the working classes.
I mean authoritarian as in, castro was the leader since its creation, and when he died it was passed onto his brother. Really dont see how it can be democratic.
To clarify, is your position that democracy means regular change in position of the head of state? In that case, President Miguel Diáz-Canel isn’t related to the Castros at all, so your cause for concern should be alleviated. Personally, I don’t see authority and democracy as contradictory, all States are monopolies on violence, as I said. Democracy in my view is rule by the majority, which I see as rule by the working classes. Cuba has a complex system of democracy that goes above western conceptions of democracy.
Cuba has what they call a participatory democracy. People participate in all levels of government, and the government is led by the PCC. The democratic structure relies on delegates sent to the various organs of government from among the people, and this translates into popular rule by the working classes themselves.
Long-serving leaders are not indicative of a lack of democracy, but more towards stability. In the context of a country under siege, stability is critical, and regular turnover introduces chaos that they cannot afford. In fact, the low term limits of leaders in countries like the US are there to prevent lasting change from ever happening, and instead let the ongoing background processes take priority, those processes being capitalism and imperialism.
The entire point of NATO was to extend the power of the usa and prevent communism spreading/open a front against the USSR if war broke out.
It is a racist imperial project architected by the worst people in the world.
After WWII the Americans put Nazi leaders into positions of power within NATO.
The classic anarchist situation
Waiter, one purity test about purity tests please.
Purity testing is worth criticizing, even if it is arguably “purity testing” to do so. Your meme resonated with me because I keep stepping on rakes in socialist spaces for being not quite socialist enough - generally, because I criticize objectively wrong/stupid things socialists do, not because they’re socialist but because they’re objectively wrong/stupid for doing the thing. In other words, I don’t pull punches just because someone is a socialist, so I’m purity tested and removed. One less ally. One less piece of constructive criticism. Brilliant.
Objecting to “purity tests” like yours reminds me of the Paradox of Tolerance; intolerance is generally bad, but if you tolerate intolerant people, your tolerant society will become intolerant. As a consequence, you must be intolerant towards the intolerant.
TL;DR: Yes, we should “purity test” purity testers, because they are actively harmful in that they make socialists look like catty idiots.
No comment on your overall point, but the paradox of tolerance is very overused and misused. It’s ultimately a proposition, not a prophecy, and the intended resolution of the paradox never seems to work in practice (see: Germany’s defensive democracy). Also the paradox isn’t about tolerating bigots; it’s about tolerating movements and ideas that seek to limit or infringe upon the rights of others. Again no comment on your overall point, but it seemed to be that you were using the popular (and fallacious) version of the paradox of tolerance so I wanted to point that out.
… I don’t see how you decided I was only talking about bigots, but okay.
I know you’re not; I was hijacking your comment to talk about the popular perception of the paradox of tolerance and how it’s wrong since you seemed to be applying it by analogy. I brought up bigots because that’s what “intolerant person” is usually parsed as by people today. Again no comment on your overall point.
Finally a thing we can all agree on
I’m currently reading Zizek’s “Less than nothing” and he criticizes Marx for not being Hegelian enough. Resetting my thermostat now
Thanks. Very helpful.
But still to.be honest, Marx always feels 100% solid to me when explaining capitalism, but on much less solid ground when predicting the future.
How so?
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“The revolution will definitely happen spontaneously.”
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“People actually want a fair system and definitely don’t just wish to feel superior.”
EDIT: Wanted to leave just thease two and be cynical but didn’t want to be dick.
My counterarguments (from my limited philosophical education (never read Marx, but read Parenti and Žižek))
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the small minority that actually doesn’t hate communism needs to resist passively or aggressively to enact change (instilling class consciousness will never work because people still dream of being better than their neighbour (or more often the minority they don’t like(since chauvinism still exists under different political system, the capitalists just abuse it (they didn’t invent it)))) (ah shit, the second point). And no, voting only works in a limited manner. You can’t really vote for anything farther left than the dem-socialists (AKA “definitely not the social democrats”).
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this is not a communism counterpoint. In my opinion communism is needed precisely because people are more often than not selfish.
To point out for anyone unsure: “The dictatorship of the proletariat” isn’t an actual rule of the proletariat, it’s a dictatorship which tries to repress the capitalists and the self proclaimed “capitalists” (without capital) and other reactionaries to try and make life better for the proletariat (at least if someone doesn’t fuck up or the “that specific country” and it’s allies doesn’t sabotage it [ Parenti - To kill a nation ], also the Cuba blockade stuff.
This are my personal thoughts. And it’s way too chaotically written (fuck).
Off the bat, this is bafflingly wrong in a few areas, but you seem to be aware of the problem already. Parenti is less a Marxist and more of a “pro-Marxist,” he supports Marxism and revolution without being an actual scholar of Marxism. Žižek is a Hegelian, not a Marxist, and moreover is an opportunist clown that capes for western imperialism through a “left” angle. As such, you have a few critical flaws in your points.
The revolution will definitely happen spontaneously.
This isn’t the Marxist point. Marxism is not determinist in this manner, the point is that as the contradiction between socialization of labor and privatization of profits grows, revolutionary pressure will increase. Spontaneity can only get you so far, though, ultimately you have to organize for revolution, and create the vehicles for aligning the working classes. All successful revolutions have relied upon such mechanisms.
People actually want a fair system and definitely don’t just wish to feel superior.
This is again, not a Marxist point. People’s way of thinking comes from their material conditions, not any intrinsic human nature. This is well documented by Anna Louise Strong, a Statesian journalist that spent a great deal of time reporting on revolutionary governments in the 20th century:
The difference appears in the use of pronouns. People under capitalism are contrasting “I” and “they.” “Too bad it couldn’t have been on my land,” a man remarks of a California oil-strike. Soviet folk would be hailing “our new oil-wells”; to them the idea of a private oil-well is already as quaint as a private postal system. I note a remark about American unemployment: “If it gets any worse, they’ll have to do something.” Who is this ultimate, uncontrollable “they”? The term betrays the class society of which the speakers are unconscious; they are waiting for some boss to act. To hear a debate: “Is America going fascist?” and think how much less passively Soviet folk would word it. “Shall we go fascist? No. Then exactly how shall we prevent it?” Soviet folk say “we” of one-sixth of the earth’s surface. Uzbek cotton-pickers, toiling under the sun of Central Asia, say: “We are conquering the Arctic; we rescued the Chelyuskinites.” Ukrainian farmers who never went up in an airplane talk of “our stratosphere records” and “the loss of our Maxim Gorky airplane” as they take up collections to build ten new ones. But even Mrs. Roosevelt asks me: “Are Russian peasants getting more reconciled to accepting direction?” I feel the hopelessness of language as I answer: “No, they are learning better to organize and direct themselves.”
I know it’s a bit of a meme for people to say “ours” and “we,” adding “comrade,” but it genuinely is the lived experience of people living in socialist society. This was written in 1936, in a book titled This Soviet World. The important note here is that the way we think depends on the way we live, the way we produce and distribute. People want to get more than their neighbors not because of any intrinsic desire, but because capitalism molds humans to do so. Just as capitalism molds humans, so too does socialism, in a more communal direction.
The role of the vanguard is to educate the rest of the working classes, bringing them up to their level of political engagement and knowledge. This is why Anna Louise Strong said the Russian peasantry were learning better to organize and direct themselves, not merely to be led passively. This ongoing pedagogical obstacle is the chief concern of communist parties, and it actually does work.
As for the dictatorship of the proletariat, it’s the dictatorial rule of a class over the rest. It isn’t a dictatorship outright, in that it’s democratic for the class in power. In capitalism, democracy extends to capitalists alone. In socialism, it’s the proletariat that enjoys democracy, and its the landlords, fascists, and capitalists denied that right.
All in all, I know saying “read Marx” is a meme, a horribly ineffective one at that, but I do think that if you have problems with an ideology, you should actually visit the source.
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It’s a nice theory, but we all know this flowchart has never been tried.
Do you believe in left unity?
The leftists are as bad about this as any liberal, conservative, or fascist. “We all need to rally together… around me. Anyone who diverges is a splitter who has undermined the party!”
Re: Hillary Clinton / Kamala Harris stans
Claudia De la Cruz is electable if you fucking vote for her, you swine. It’s HER TURN!
Bruh, you can’t just point out how different ideological groupings suffer from the same underlying human cognitive biases like that.
Yes, but have you considered a stray comment from a week old account called ‘commiecoomdumpster42069’? Their comment is unhinged and irrelevant, but they must represent leftists and leftism everywhere, past and present. You must answer for it! It’s clearly your alt account!
No? Well I don’t believe you! Checkmate in the marketplace of ideas.
we agree
I hate you because you’re a liberal
hmmmm












