- cross-posted to:
- futurology@futurology.today
- cross-posted to:
- futurology@futurology.today
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Brain of Theseus.
This is the correct way IMO. “Uploading” your mind to a computer is making a clone/copy, but the original dies the same.
Maintaining continuity of consciousness is the only thing that would make me feel comfortable with converting myself to a machine intelligence.
I hate to break it to you, but our meat brains don’t even have continuity of consciousness. We become unconscious all the time. The only real constant is the “hardware” our consciousness emerges from, but even that is always changing.
Except our brains are still functioning. If they didn’t keep functioning, we’d be brain dead. The point is that there’s a common thread that connects every waking moment together.
I don’t get the down votes. Did y’all forget about sleep? No one vividly dreams every night all night long. Often it’s the fade to black going to sleep then the sudden awakening.
You do not die every night.
How would you know?
How do you know you’re not a copy of yesterday’s you? If a clone has your memories and you’re not around anymore, then what’s the difference?
You’d have to experience death for the clone to continue being the only copy.
Yeah. In the example above the original is dead, and a clone with all of your memories up until the point of death is generated.
In that case, there is continuity of concussions, at least as far as anyone can tell, least of all the clone.
Don’t try to get philosophical about this. There is a hard difference between copying a brain and actually transferring consciousness.
Don’t try to get philosophical about this.
Er? It’s a philosophical conversation since, you know, brain uploading is not a thing.
If you don’t want to engage in philosophy, you’re in the wrong place.
Obviously not, but what is the functional difference? If you can’t tell it’s happening, does it actually matter?
Yes, yes it matters a lot. If you die you do not wake up again.
Sorry, should have been more specific. If you died in your sleep every night and came back to life in the morning, and you couldn’t tell it was happening, would it matter?
It’s not a question with a right answer, I just want to hear your thoughts about it
That’s not what he means and you know it.
What does maintaining continuity of consciousness look like to you? As in you are able to talk to your copy? And continue to live your normal life outside while your digital self lives their digital life?
Or are you saying you want the transition to digital to be seamless, where your digital self remembers laying in a chair, a quick pin-prick, and then they’re in the digital realm?
Keep in mind, we have zero understanding of how you’d get the meat consciousness to transition into the digital consciousness - it’s likely not even possible. The two options for copying are keep both alive or terminate the original somewhere before bringing the digital one online. There’s many ways to do both, but those are the two.
I think the only way we know it is us for sure is if we are conscious in both the original and clone at the same time. Like… okay… I know this is me in the new brain, I’ll shut down the other one.
Like… okay… I know this is me in the new brain, I’ll shut down the other one.
the other one: i’m pretty sure you’ve got it backwards, pal
No, no… you misunderstood. We’re just taking a trip to the brain farm up north. You’ll be able to think with the other brains up there. It’ll be fun.
Read Old Man’s War.
I agree.
But here is an interesting thing to think about:
What is the perceived difference between falling asleep and waking up the next day, vs going to sleep and copying your consciousness to a machine/new body.
Your brain is still functioning while you’re asleep. If it turned off all the way then you’d become brain-dead.
But would you notice?
Probably. If you’ve ever been under anesthesia then you’ve probably noticed the difference between sleeping under anesthesia and sleeping under normal conditions. Personally, I normally get the feeling that time has passed when I sleep, I didn’t have that feeling when I had my wisdom teeth removed; and anesthesia still doesn’t turn your brain all the way off. I’m pretty sure if your brain actually turned off all the way and then turned back on again, then you’d probably feel like you’re a different person.
You wouldn’t notice because you’d be dead. Your clone wouldn’t notice because it would think it was you. Your friends and family wouldn’t notice because they’d think your clone was you.
That continuity of function is arbitrary. In reality it provides people comfort in some idea of a soul but there’s nothing suggesting it actually provides anything to the continuity of consciousness.
Between every loss in time, where you stop forming memories until you wake up again, you have nothing to affirm that your current consciousness is the same as your last waking period’s. The only thing vaguely providing that illusion is your previously-formed memories, which would exist all the same on the digital mind, in theory.
I don’t think you understand. Your consciousness is just one process amid a myriad of processes that your brain runs. It’s that continuity that matters. You’re correct that I don’t know if my current consciousness is the same as prior consciousnesses, however what matters is that my brain has never shut off, giving me the feeling as though I am the same person; and it is because of that thread that I am the same person (though perhaps with a different consciousness).
Furthermore, you can’t achieve immortality through digital consciousness if you just copy the whole thing and throw out the original. Again, it’s the continuity. It honestly confuses me why people think that’s a rational idea when the very obvious problem is, “what if something goes wrong and human me wakes up?”
That’s why you have people, like me, who get frustrated when people start getting philosophical about this shit because they think you can “just make a perfect copy” of a person to achieve immortality.
Seriously?
No.
You just killed yourself and made a copy of yourself. You didn’t achieve shit. Your new self might be happy, but your old self is dead. You’re not suddenly going to wake up as a digital clone. You’re not waking up at all, it’s your clone that’s waking up.
And hey, if that’s good enough for you, then so be it. Just don’t pretend you’ve achieved immortality; it was your digital clone that did. You’re still going to die.
It also confuses me that so many people seem to believe that you’re literally brain-dead while you sleep. If you were literally brain-dead then there’d be no way for you to wake up. Sleep seems to be when the brain processes memories too, so if your brain fully shut off, then it wouldn’t be able to processes memories while you’re asleep. Finally, afaik, once the brain shuts off, it can’t turn back on; evolution didn’t plan for a situation in which someone’s been dead long enough for brain activity to cease before their heart starts pumping again. So why does everyone insist that you go brain-dead the moment your head touches the pillow?
This convo has gone on for centuries at this point. The Brain in the Jar, the teleportation conundrum, Thesius’ ship, it’s all already been covered over and over. people like you still keep crawling out of the woodwork thinking you know better than every philosopher that already waxed over this problem ad nauseum.
Your ‘continuous self’ is just as worthless as a concept. The idea that your ‘sense of being the same person’ is being held together by being apart of your plumbing just as much of an illusion. It’s worthless.
To elaborate, you are not the brain. You are the observer, the thing which exists as a byproduct of the brain’s processes, perhaps even a process yourself within. There’s also plenty of times when you will lose time other than sleep, like concussions, getting blackout drunk, panic attacks, and after those times you have no memory of making decisions or acting in your own accord, but you were. You, the observer, were absent while the brain kept working. So where were you?
You act as though you’re sure you are still the same observer as the one who went to bed. That is completely unsubstantiated. You may have just been born into your body when you awoke today, and will only have until your body falls back asleep again before you cease to exist, replaced by another process that thinks itself is you, another observer.
And if ‘you’ one day woke up in a digital world, like our own, it’s you’d be none the wiser, because your self is simply a collection of processes and memories. It’s arbitrary. It’s all dust. There’s not some special ‘continuity’ that keeps you alive somehow.
Some sleep is conscious (dreaming) but they’re easily forgotten. Perhaps being unconscious still always has a grain of consciousness (but is just forgotten).
It seems there is a grain of reduced experience while sleeping. Copying seems to imply it’s always a clone (a different ego, a different person).
The body. It’s feeding you vast amounts of information every moment, it’s the one making decisions, you’re the AI assistant providing analysis and advice
If you clone a tree, you get a similar tree. The branches aren’t in the same place. If you clone a human, why would the nerves be laid out the same way? Even if it’s wired up correctly, without a lifetime of cooperation why would your body take your advice?
Imagine you wake up. Red looks blue. Everything feels numb. The doctor says “everything looks good, why don’t you try to stand up?”. You want to cooperate with the doctor, but you don’t stand up. You could move, but you don’t. Rationalizing your choices, you tell the doctor you don’t feel like it. You feel your toes, you shift to get away from the prodding of your doctor, but you just can’t muster the will to stand
Imagine you wake up. Your sight is crystal clear, you feel your body like never before. The doctor says “don’t move yet”. With the self control of a child, you rip out the itchy IV to get the tape off of you. The doctor says something in a stem tone, and you’re filled with rage. You pummel the doctor, then are filled with regret and start to cry
Emerging science suggests this kind of situation could lead to brand new forms of existential horror
The doctor says something in a stem tone
!keming@lemmy.world moment?
The m in stem stands for medicine. Maybe your new body doesn’t trust experts, so when doc spoke in an overly educated tone it provoked aggression. Possibly because of overhearing this tone during incubation and while getting the original brain replaced
Or maybe I made a typo
reading this comment suddenly reminded me of the “Pantheon” show.
Man I can’t get that brain laser out of my memory. So brutal
As long as it’s made mandatory to cover with insurance so it’s available to everyone. The last thing we need is an immortal ruling class.
Hoping real hard that Alternate Carbon is not becoming reality.
I see that you too have heard the prophecy.
Don’t worry, going by past history this will be available to any and…uhh, [checks notes] oh, uh-oh.
Oh at this point it seems like we’re treating dystopian science fiction as a guidebook instead of a warning.
Someone’s getting hangry and needs a Soylent.
Hold on, what color Soylent are we talking about? Is it the delicious, definitely only plants, green flavor?
Sci-Fi Author: In my book I invented the Torment Nexus as a cautionary tale Tech
Company: At long last, we have created the Torment Nexus from classic sci-fi novel Don’t Create The Torment Nexus
Let the death of Saburo Arasaka be a lesson to us all: even 150+ year old bastards can get choked the fuck out
On the plus side an immortal ruling class might actually start caring about climate change.
Sure, in the most dystopian way possible.
“Have you tried ‘kill the poor’?”
… and reduce emissions by wasting the rest. But due to negative selection leading into that upper class they won’t be able to manage the planet further despite thinking that they can and will die of hunger eventually.
Is a forever expanding population of old people much better?
If they’re functional, and we get serious about space or birth control, then no it’s not a problem. But that is another path we can take to really juice the dystopia.
It will take a very long time indeed before we can reach another habitable planet enough to alleviate an exponentially growing population, and forced birth control will be unpopular, not to mention probably employed as eugenics by those in power against those who aren’t.
There’s always orbital habitats. They ramp up a lot quicker than even a Mars colony.
Not the way I’d want to spend the rest of my life, that’s for sure.
Eh, it would be worth it with the right recreational activities up there and knowing we weren’t setting up altered carbon.
You’d have zero control over your existence. Someone else would own that station and you’d exist entirely at their whim. They would decide if you get food, air, water, shelter. No real access to nature. I’d rather die.
this might finally be a way to eliminate insurance companies
So we get Universal healthcare then, right?
right?
no
The final boss of subscriptions
We don’t need immortal billionaires sucking up everyone’s oxygen.
If you haven’t, you should watch and/or read Altered Carbon.
If you choose to watch, it is my opinion that it’s primarily the first season that’s worth watching.
Yeah it’s not like the rest of the population ever benefits from advances in technology… Oh wait…
Found the immortal billionaire. Your username fools no one, highlander.
Well the “not having extreme longevity” doesn’t seem to function, they are here anyways.
Good lord, just let people DIE. Imagine what a rotten place this would be if people with outdated mindsets continued to control the world decades or even centuries after their expiration dates. People were already angry about 80 year old presidential candidates… what happens when they’re 120, or 150?
For $10 a month you can get the brain implant without ads.
You know… I’m just gonna check this DNR box.
I know it’s a scientologist movie but “battlefield earth”…
I’d rather not enact the highest stakes ship of Theseus
Probably the best description I’ve seen of this lmao
You don’t want to save your old brain chunks and put them back together to see if you can make on old version of you?
I want a brain update and a penis upgrade please! Yes 275Tb of ram for my penis and 6" of brain 🧠!
I don’t want my penis remembering that much.
rm -rf penis/Oops
That actually made me laugh out loud. 😂
Cyberpunk, let’s gooo🤣
The penis upgrade already exists, it’s called a “vaginoplasty,” sweaty 💅💅💅
After upgrade, years later in a CT scan. Dr. “That is a weird looking brain it almost looks like a pecker.”
Total mindfuck.
No thanks. We don’t need rich people living forever.
Might be the only way to get them to give a shit about the environment.
I doubt it. They will just dump shit further away. If their solution default is to make things “somebody else’s problem” there’s no reason to believe they will stop thinking that way.
That might be their outlook on “local” pollution for a while, but you don’t think going from 20 years left to centuries to live might affect their opinions on global climate change?
Not really. Many of them are already heavily invested in life extension tech (not that I think it will work, but it means they’re optimistic). I think their general worldview is that technology will fix it, at least for them.
Yeah, I’m probably being too optimistic.
Seems your plan doesn’t work, they are here anyways.
Speak for yourself. I think it would be great.
They can live forever but have to trade their fortune for it permanently
There are two reasons he believes the neocortex could be replaced, albeit only slowly. The first is evidence from rare cases of benign brain tumors, like a man described in the medical literature who developed a growth the size of an orange. Yet because it grew very slowly, the man’s brain was able to adjust, shifting memories elsewhere, and his behavior and speech never seemed to change—even when the tumor was removed.
That’s proof, Hébert thinks, that replacing the neocortex little by little could be achieved “without losing the information encoded in it” such as a person’s self-identity.
The second source of hope, he says, is experiments showing that fetal-stage cells can survive, and even function, when transplanted into the brains of adults. For instance, medical tests underway are showing that young neurons can integrate into the brains of people who have epilepsy and stop their seizures.
“It was these two things together—the plastic nature of brains and the ability to add new tissue—that, to me, were like, ‘Ah, now there has got to be a way,’” says Hébert.
Very interesting. I’ve also seen research suggesting that the application of stem cells to damaged neural tissue within the spinal cord could repair it, so the idea that you could use a similar approach to actual brain health isn’t such a big leap. But still, wow. I wonder how long it would take for the immature cells to develop into “adult mode” that’s fully integrated into the patients cortex. In order to replace the entire brain, you’d have to do it in like, 8 parts, with years of recovery time in between each surgery. Also there would exist the potential for the new cells to develop into like, a second, smaller brain, if the connections sour or if the new material isn’t stimulated the “right” way.
a man described in the medical literature who developed a growth the size of an orange. Yet because it grew very slowly, the man’s brain was able to adjust, shifting memories elsewhere, and his behavior and speech never seemed to change—even when the tumor was removed.
Wow, that’s wild.
FROM THE MOMENT I UNDERSTOOD THE WEAKNESS OF MY FLESH IT DISGUSTED ME
I don’t want to live longer, fix my fucking knees and back.
…fresh cloned bodies…
If they make it so I can eat cheese and go outside in summer without drying I’ll happy
Yes, please focus on the Global Dryness problem first. I must be wet at all times.
This would do that.
Ya the SENS repair approach is the way to go IMO.
Millennials and Gen Z: *bond over their death wish Scientists: *ETERNAL LIFE
Could they have at least waited for the boomers to go first, they’ll never give up power now
“Millennials are ruining the death industry!”
The brain renewal concept could have applications such as treating stroke victims
If this can restore functions to stroke victims again, it’s absolutely amazing.
If this is vastly successful which remains to be seen, there might be a path format to the longevity part of the idea.This could help a lot of veterans and football players too
I can think of a lot of football players who are in need of more brain.
CTE.
I mean, they were in need of more brain before the CTE too
Happy cake day!
Hey I resemble that remark
President Joe Biden created ARPA-H in 2022, as an agency within the Department of Health and Human Services, to pursue what he called “bold, urgent innovation”
I did not see Biden creating a cloning and immortality medical research arm of the government but I guess it’s proof he already knew he was getting old before the debate and no wonder Trump wants back in the white house.
