My mother in law has no problem with M/M but complains about lesbians (says it’s disgusting) - I then assumed homophobes are bothered more about gays of their own gender in general.
That’s fair, most people who are loudly anti-gay tend to be male. Mostly because the “loudly anti-gay” group tends to overlap significantly with the "anti-women- group.
I also see a lot of anti-lesbian stuff from women. Tbh, I see more of it in my own personal life than I do anti-gay men, but that’s just my experience, I don’t know if that’s also the reality (I imagine it varies by area/culture too).
And yeah I agree with your theory that people seem more bothered about same-sex relations for their own sex.
Lesbians have been fetishized because it feeds into a FFM threesome fantasy. The entire setup is just aimed at straight men who are single or unhappy with their marriage. All too often when F/F relationships are portrayed like this, when the women are out together they are almost always flirty with other guys they meet, like they are trying to plant the seed that one lucky guy could be taken home with them.
While I certainly agree the audience was more than ready for M/M and bisexual male characters, we didn’t see it nearly as much because the bigots in charge didn’t fetishize it, and didn’t want it front and center even as a B story because it was going to cause backlash, from themselves and other bigots like them.
I do not agree that this was about audience approval.
I pointed out to others in a Garak thread that before Garak was introduced (and before these two episodes), we already had Roy’s gay son on Wings who intentionally defied all stereotypes, the gay male couple who owned the B&B in Northern Exposure and the reveal that the town’s founders were lovers, not sisters, plus more than one episode with a gay man as positive characters in L.A. law and Roseanne. If you want to push it back further, you had Billy Crystal’s character in Soap who did have stereotypical mannerisms, but they were really downplayed and he was one of the only decent members of his family.
The audience was ready for gay male characters on a show that already celebrated diversity. Berman was just a bigot.
Ricky B. Probably thought it was a Sappho situation. To be honest, Berman did the most damage to Star Trek while TNG was still on the air.
After that, he became the Kathleen Kennedy of Star Trek - still in power on paper, but amounting to much less as time went on.
DS9 was essentially run by Ira Steven Behr and Voyager by Jeri Taylor. Which is why they were so unusually sexually liberal and feminist, respectively, for something on network prime time in the 1990s.
Edit: Feminist, not feminine. Not really wrong, but a weird way to say it. :P
Yes, but even there, Berman prevented characters from being gay and out, which is why he quashed what was very obviously intended to be a romantic relationship between Garak and Bashir. Both of them play their characters like there is a mutual attraction in the episode where Garak premieres.
This take has been throwing me off lately. I can definitely see how what a lot of is said can certainly be an innuendo, but personally I just thought thats how Garak is. Always mysterious, giving double entendres, etc. I think it would definitely have been interesting to explore that scenario, but personally I think it already fits very well as “Thats how Garak is with anyone”.
Andrew Robinson said he played Garak as omnisexual and attracted to Bashir. Alexander Siddig has described himself as “not quite straight” and both have played the roles unofficially as there being a relationship.
We see a tiny fraction of the characters’ lives. A portion of a 45-minute episode. For all we know, they walked hand-in-hand down the promenade every day for months as everyone commented on what a cute couple they made. We just never saw it on screen.
Right, that’s why I said “most”. I know he still caused trouble with those series, too. But he didn’t micromanage them like he did The Next Generation.
Berman had reduced roles as each of the seasons went on but he still did the damage. Behind the scenes he’s the primary reason Terry Farrel left the series, harassing her for literal years at that point and finally using his influence to try and financially dominate her, which she basically said fuck that and refused the contract.
While Nicole de Boer did an amazing job picking up the role with basically no build up or introduction that the character was due, the shoes she had to fill were just too big and the character suffered as even the writers were trying to figure out what to even do with the character. Various other rumors and things cast members have said have pretty much all pointed back to Berman about tensions on sets writers not being able to use the plots they wanted to run in the show because they didn’t align with his bigoted views.
Hmm… I think the Ezri character arc is actually pretty strong for being in the show for only one season of a show in the nineties. I mean, they had the whole conflict with Worf up to a new friendship and her dissing the Klingon empire, the episode where she helps Garak, the episode where she finds the killer, the episode where she helps Lennier detect the Houdinis, the episode where O’Brian goes missing and we see her family… The only thing I really didn’t like was how she was basically shown as incompetent in the Nog PTSD episode. That was a wasted opportunity showing her as a great counselor. But Troi was also always incompetent at her job, so I guess that’s tradition in Star Trek. But all of these episodes are unique to Ezri, except for AR-558, none of these story lines would have worked with Jadzia.
Nicole DeBoer is a strong actress and her arc was well done overall. The problem was that it was the wrap up season for the show and that’s not the best time to be concentrating on a new character.
I guess Rick Berman was okay with homoerotic women stuff, just not men stuff?
F/F was weirdly more palatable to audiences for decades before M/M.
It kind of still is. Most people who oppose “teh gays” mostly talk about male-male…
My mother in law has no problem with M/M but complains about lesbians (says it’s disgusting) - I then assumed homophobes are bothered more about gays of their own gender in general.
That’s fair, most people who are loudly anti-gay tend to be male. Mostly because the “loudly anti-gay” group tends to overlap significantly with the "anti-women- group.
A lot.of anti-gay males are afraid of being treated the way the cis guys treat women as just a sexual object.
I also see a lot of anti-lesbian stuff from women. Tbh, I see more of it in my own personal life than I do anti-gay men, but that’s just my experience, I don’t know if that’s also the reality (I imagine it varies by area/culture too).
And yeah I agree with your theory that people seem more bothered about same-sex relations for their own sex.
I’m curious. What area / culture are you in?
I live in a relatively impoverished area in the north east of England, although I’m originally from India
“WE DON’T WANT ‘MEN’ IN THE WOMEN’S BATHROOM”
And FTM transpeople? You’re cool with them using the men’s bathroom?
“Eff te wat? What are you on about?”
The JK brand of transphobes don’t even believe they exist as they think trans = “men role-playing in order to abuse women”
Lesbians have been fetishized because it feeds into a FFM threesome fantasy. The entire setup is just aimed at straight men who are single or unhappy with their marriage. All too often when F/F relationships are portrayed like this, when the women are out together they are almost always flirty with other guys they meet, like they are trying to plant the seed that one lucky guy could be taken home with them.
While I certainly agree the audience was more than ready for M/M and bisexual male characters, we didn’t see it nearly as much because the bigots in charge didn’t fetishize it, and didn’t want it front and center even as a B story because it was going to cause backlash, from themselves and other bigots like them.
“Yeah but I can convert her" mentality is way more powerful than logic.
I do not agree that this was about audience approval.
I pointed out to others in a Garak thread that before Garak was introduced (and before these two episodes), we already had Roy’s gay son on Wings who intentionally defied all stereotypes, the gay male couple who owned the B&B in Northern Exposure and the reveal that the town’s founders were lovers, not sisters, plus more than one episode with a gay man as positive characters in L.A. law and Roseanne. If you want to push it back further, you had Billy Crystal’s character in Soap who did have stereotypical mannerisms, but they were really downplayed and he was one of the only decent members of his family.
The audience was ready for gay male characters on a show that already celebrated diversity. Berman was just a bigot.
Ricky B. Probably thought it was a Sappho situation. To be honest, Berman did the most damage to Star Trek while TNG was still on the air.
After that, he became the Kathleen Kennedy of Star Trek - still in power on paper, but amounting to much less as time went on.
DS9 was essentially run by Ira Steven Behr and Voyager by Jeri Taylor. Which is why they were so unusually sexually liberal and feminist, respectively, for something on network prime time in the 1990s.
Edit: Feminist, not feminine. Not really wrong, but a weird way to say it. :P
Yes, but even there, Berman prevented characters from being gay and out, which is why he quashed what was very obviously intended to be a romantic relationship between Garak and Bashir. Both of them play their characters like there is a mutual attraction in the episode where Garak premieres.
This take has been throwing me off lately. I can definitely see how what a lot of is said can certainly be an innuendo, but personally I just thought thats how Garak is. Always mysterious, giving double entendres, etc. I think it would definitely have been interesting to explore that scenario, but personally I think it already fits very well as “Thats how Garak is with anyone”.
Andrew Robinson said he played Garak as omnisexual and attracted to Bashir. Alexander Siddig has described himself as “not quite straight” and both have played the roles unofficially as there being a relationship.
We see a tiny fraction of the characters’ lives. A portion of a 45-minute episode. For all we know, they walked hand-in-hand down the promenade every day for months as everyone commented on what a cute couple they made. We just never saw it on screen.
And I think the choices of the actors matter.
This is where Garak and Bashir first meet. You watch this and tell me it isn’t a meet cute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTeJKg8Yf4A
What’s that phrase about “frightened but aroused”?
That.
Haha, very well. I stand corrected. It does make Garak a little less mysterious in my mind but thats just fine.
I recently discovered this superior version of that scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR1zgRYL530
Also, Garak seems like a character that’s down to honeypot anybody if the mission requires it.
You could say Garak really is that way with anyone ;).
Right, that’s why I said “most”. I know he still caused trouble with those series, too. But he didn’t micromanage them like he did The Next Generation.
Berman had reduced roles as each of the seasons went on but he still did the damage. Behind the scenes he’s the primary reason Terry Farrel left the series, harassing her for literal years at that point and finally using his influence to try and financially dominate her, which she basically said fuck that and refused the contract.
While Nicole de Boer did an amazing job picking up the role with basically no build up or introduction that the character was due, the shoes she had to fill were just too big and the character suffered as even the writers were trying to figure out what to even do with the character. Various other rumors and things cast members have said have pretty much all pointed back to Berman about tensions on sets writers not being able to use the plots they wanted to run in the show because they didn’t align with his bigoted views.
Hmm… I think the Ezri character arc is actually pretty strong for being in the show for only one season of a show in the nineties. I mean, they had the whole conflict with Worf up to a new friendship and her dissing the Klingon empire, the episode where she helps Garak, the episode where she finds the killer, the episode where she helps Lennier detect the Houdinis, the episode where O’Brian goes missing and we see her family… The only thing I really didn’t like was how she was basically shown as incompetent in the Nog PTSD episode. That was a wasted opportunity showing her as a great counselor. But Troi was also always incompetent at her job, so I guess that’s tradition in Star Trek. But all of these episodes are unique to Ezri, except for AR-558, none of these story lines would have worked with Jadzia.
Nicole DeBoer is a strong actress and her arc was well done overall. The problem was that it was the wrap up season for the show and that’s not the best time to be concentrating on a new character.
Know your audience
I mean…have you seen the Trek fan fiction?
I haven’t. I’m just assuming everyone was writing about Kirk and Spock back in the day, too.
They definitely were. Kirk/Spock was the origin of the term “ slash fiction”.
There are some stories about the DS9 writers/runners being less Bermaned because his focus was on ending TNG and then starting Voy.