• NounsAndWords@lemmy.worldEnglish
    291·
    9 个月前

    The riot occurred at a clothing manufacturing and seafood processing factory

    That…is an interesting combination

    • BossDj@lemm.eeEnglish
      248·
      9 个月前

      I read this somewhere else on Lemmy recently (sorry for comment steal):

      American companies that are trying to dismantle unions need to understand that unions were a compromise to protect the companies. Because this is the alternative.

      • chknbwl@lemmy.worldEnglish
        67·
        9 个月前

        This issue extends to politicians as well. If you replace “Ancien Régime” with “Oligarchy-flavored Republic” it’s almost like we’re living the beginning script of the French Revolution here in America. That should induce quite the pandemic of sweaty palms in D.C. If that Oaf gets reelected, we’re gonna have a Louis XVI on our hands… and we all know how that went down…

      • Telodzrum@lemmy.worldEnglish
        34·
        9 个月前

        There’s a quote I can’t seem to find about unions being the compromise because the alternative is showing up at the factory owner’s house.

        The Battle of the Overpass wasn’t that long ago.

        • OnceADream@lemmy.worldEnglish
          40·
          9 个月前

          Found the one I was thinking of:

          Someone should probably tell the rich that workers banding together to present formal address of grievances is the alternative we worked out a long time ago to breaking down the factory owner’s front door and beating him to death in front of his family? I feel like they forgot.

          It was on Twitter, no idea the origin.

      • FraidyBear@lemmy.worldEnglish
        29·
        9 个月前

        The great part about history is sometimes there’s no need to find a quote when there’s tons of evidence! Here’s a few:

        France, George Besse killed in 85’ due to his “revolutionary” turnaround of a company that included mass layoffs.

        United States Labor Wars which spanned a century of bloodshed and violence. The Labor Wars included the Battle of Blair Mountain where the largest private army in US history was formed and approximately one million rounds were fired.

        There’s a reason your history classes were boring, there’s a reason they opt for American propaganda instead of facts, and there is a reason companies are shitting themselves over union talks. Both the best and worst part about being a history buff is knowing the facts they don’t want you to hear. Be a History Buff with me Limmings! We never meet up, there are no dues, you have no deadlines or tests, and you get to earn dark secrets you can use to torture your friends and family with. It’s great!

        • BlindFrog@lemmy.worldEnglish
          8·
          9 个月前

          If I could carry around a Limmings History Buff Fellowship member card with qr code links to sites like these, it’d be just handy dandy for the torturing-friends-and-family part.

    • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
      111·
      9 个月前

      You’re a literal slave? You are not paid for the work you do? You work sleep work and nothing else? You are physically and mentally mistreated at work? Does your work make you suicidal? Are you unable to switch to a different job? Do you live under a dictatorial regime? Will you be shot and killed if you try to escape?

      Yeah, I doubt you can honestly say yes to even a single one of those questions. Some of today’s work environments have issues, with a lot of them caused by companies, but a lot of them also caused by the likes of you who do want the perks and the money, but who just flat out refuse to do anything at all beyond complaining and talking about murdering those that did work hard.

      I’ve been a low level employee, I’ve been dirt poor, I worked myself up over the years. I’ve had loads of shitty bosses, I’ve been (technically still am) a company owner, now I’m a C level director. I work hard, work responsibly, and try to do the best for all employees in my teams. Should I be murdered too?

      With people like you it’s not the company that is a problem, you are the problem. Fix your own life before you start threatening those that you don’t like

      • Crikeste@lemm.eeEnglish
        38·
        9 个月前

        This guy is so staunch in his toxic capitalism at the cost of everything that he didn’t even stop to consider that this may be a joke.

        • Facebones@reddthat.comEnglish
          161·
          9 个月前

          Because it’s not a joke to Phoenixz. He’s just got the boot so far down his throat there’s no alternative. Reading his comment, it sounds like one of those people who owns a job not a business, and/or one of those people who thinks he’s now in the 1%s good graces now that he makes $100k/yr.

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
          11·
          9 个月前

          Somebody makes a valid argument and well, since we don’t know how to respond, we’ll just call it toxic capitalism.

          Capitalism has issues, some severe, that can and must be fixed. Fee people will disagree there. You, however, are the type that actually believes that Communism is great and will solve all of our problems. Writing, probably, from your phone without realizing that that same phone is in your hands because of capitalism (ands butt loads of science, also supported by capitalism), just like the pants on your butt and the food in your belly and the medicine that has or will save your life.

          You want capitalism to support a strong social system that gives you all the perks like free healthcare, free education, maybe even universal income.

      • Gabu@lemmy.worldEnglish
        29·
        9 个月前

        Nobody gets paid for the work they do under capitalism. The proletariat gets his value stolen, the Cs and owners get paid for work they didn’t do.

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
          21·
          9 个月前

          So you’ve never received a salary, then? You always worked for free? Because if so, I think there in lies the problem. Go look for a job that is paid, and you’ll no longer be a slave. Problem solved. Next!

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
          11·
          9 个月前

          Great argument! Now go back to sitting and being useless to everyone, just like you’re doing now.

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
          21·
          9 个月前

          And you are quite literally making shit up and call it an argument. Wage slave? really?

          You are arguing that you kust want to sit and get shit for free? Is that it? Or are you one of those delusional ones that wants to make their own food on their own garden, and somehow believe that that will magically work, even though it obviously can’t?

            • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
              11·
              9 个月前

              There is a very realistic chance that I’m taller than you, and I’m very very much not angry. I’m slightly annoyed though by people spouting rhetoric whilst apparently not able to read highschool level English.

              What part is it that you don’t understand? I’ll happily elaborate

      • Wogi@lemmy.worldEnglish
        21·
        9 个月前

        I have been in a position in the past to answer yes to more than one of those questions, many of the people I used to work with still can.

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
          11·
          9 个月前

          So you’re living in a dictatorship, I presume? Because you don’t find any of that crap in any western (ie, capitalist, ooohhh!) country.

          • Wogi@lemmy.worldEnglish
            2·
            9 个月前

            Years ago, I took a job at a call center. These jobs paid, on average at the time, about 10 dollars an hour. Which was more than minimum wage, but not by much.

            Jobs other than call center work for under educated, under experienced people in my city were really hard to find. The good employers were almost never hiring, hired from within, and outsourced the entry level stuff. The vast majority of available jobs to myself and ultimately the other 300 people that ended up going through that particular call center were customer service roles.

            That industry is notoriously difficult to break out of. You’d say ‘just go find a different job.’ and yeah that’s good in theory. But everyone working those jobs is always looking for another job. No one takes a call center job and isn’t thinking about getting a better job. If those jobs were readily available, call center staff simply wouldn’t exist. These are jobs of last resort. A step up from flipping burgers.

            The pay is barely enough to afford rent and groceries. That was years ago, it’s probably much worse now. I had roommates. Without them I wouldn’t have been able to afford much other than going to work and back and feeding myself, nevermind driving all over town trying to find another job.

            Thing is at these jobs you’re infinitely replaceable. As desperate as you were when you took it, there are ten other people behind you, just as if not more desperate for work. They will literally hire people off the street and throw them in training within a day.

            So not only can you not afford to lose this job, you can’t afford to speak up at this job. You can’t unionize, because mentioning it will get you fired on the spot, you can’t speak up about abusive situations, because HR will simply fire you. You can’t even report illegal practices.

            So on to this particular call center job. This was basically just filling mail order prescriptions. Theoretically people would call in, tell someone what they’d needed, we’d click a few buttons and in a week they’d have a 90 day supply.

            That’s not what happened. 95% of the calls we received were problems. Most of the day was spent either being screamed at, or pleaded with, with none of the tools we needed to actually address these problems. To add to this, we were constantly watched by management. Quality, supervisors, auditors, trainers, you name it. If they weren’t taking calls they were listening to calls. My record was 3 simultaneous people listening in to a single phone call while it was happening but I heard of more. Any deviation from our very strict rules meant immediate and swift correction from everyone that heard about it, every time they heard about it. That was the only feedback.

            Because we were not trained for the type of work we were doing, this negative feedback was constant.

            Add to that, they gave us a really bizarre schedule. No one started at the same time every day. No one had two days off in a row. You might start at 11 am one day and 630 am next. You can imagine, bathroom breaks were also tightly monitored and yes, more than one woman was fired because they were pregnant and peed too frequently.

            All of this is to just provide some context you apparently sorely need.

            I found more than one suicide note at that job. Generally hidden under keyboards. I know at least one woman did commit suicide while employed there, two others that committed suicide in the years following, still working similar jobs.

            It’s important to know how trapped these jobs make you feel. Not only are you rarely ever actually able to help anyone, the company you’re working for is actively making shitty business decisions and counting on you to smooth it over for them. Your managers are under pressure to keep your call times low and your answered calls high, and that shit rolls down hill. You can’t just quit, you can’t easily find a different job, you can’t afford to do anything other than work and sleep.

            So no, it’s not a dictatorship. But that’s not the fucking problem.

          • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
            1·
            9 个月前

            What dogma? That we should all contribute to society, and get something in return for that?

            Do you understand the mental gymnastics you’re doing here? You literally use the pinnacle of capitalism and science, a mobile phone ( I presume, if not, a computer works too) to bitch about the evils of capitalism and how you want to get rid of it and how evil it is for allowing you to do this in the first place. Because yes, without capitalism, you would not have this phone. You would not have most of the things you take for granted.

            I’m presuming here that you’re young, 15-25 or so, and that you still have a lot of facts to learn about this world. I’ll assume you didn’t learn much history because if you did you’d know that capitalism has a lot of issues, that can and should be resolved, but it’s a buttload better than the alternatives

            • nintendiator@feddit.clEnglish
              2·
              9 个月前

              Gal, chill. Take a dipirone or something. You can criticize the system from within the system. The feudal owners of the pitchforks and guillotines during the Revolution probably noted the irony, too, when they were brought in to weigh.

              • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
                11·
                8 个月前

                I have no problem with criticizing capitalism, it’s flawed and has many issues that need resolving.

                I have a problem with the types that live in this fantasy world where communism is awesome (yeah it’s not) and where we’ll all go live where we want and have a garden with vegetables in our yard and live off those and it will all be awesome and we will never need capitalism again and we can all ignore real world facts forever, yay!

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
          11·
          9 个月前

          How about you actually read what I wrote and then try again, instead of just seeing something you don’t like, stop reading, and try to make some half assed witty response?

          I suffered nothing, you’re the ones literally acting like capitalism is only slavery

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
          11·
          9 个月前

          Maybe learn a little before you start talking about things you don’t understand? You’re literally parrotting nonsense statements that sound cool but mean nothing.

            • Phoenixz@lemmy.caEnglish
              11·
              9 个月前

              Wage slavery literally is an oxymoron but yeah, I’m the one spouting rhetoric. You don’t understand even the basic of what you wantzl, not how capitalism works.

      • workerONE@lemmy.worldEnglish
        14·
        9 个月前

        What do you mean? Communist podcasts I listened to consider them Communist, Internet search says the BBC says they are Communist.

        Edit: you all like to downvote instead of having a conversation. Everybody hasn’t studied every subject, try sharing a little of what you know instead of discouraging discussion

        • CaptainSpaceman@lemmy.worldEnglish
          56·
          9 个月前

          Theyre a classless society with no currency?

          You sure they arent a capitalist dictatorship disguised as Communist?

          • TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            23·
            9 个月前

            You make some good points. They most definitely have currency and a lower working class with an upper government official class. I would not consider them communist at all. North Korea is just an authoritarian capitalistic hellhole, that tries to sprinkle in one or two socialist policies to maintain the illusion of pursuing communism.

          • workerONE@lemmy.worldEnglish
            7·
            9 个月前

            I see in reading more that NK is pretty far from communist. But I think people have imagined communism to be something that it never could be. I don’t see how society could exist without money. I see that Soviets thought that eventually they wouldn’t need money but I think this is unrealistic and I don’t see that existence of money in a society could be used to determine if it’s communist or not. .

            • CaptainSpaceman@lemmy.worldEnglish
              11·
              9 个月前

              Marx said that socialism is the gateway for communism. Bring the means of prouction to the working class, then youd be able to make the next transition to communism.

              In any case, there are no societies currently that meet the primary criteria for being called socialist OR communist.

            • Gabu@lemmy.worldEnglish
              3·
              9 个月前

              I don’t see how society could exist without money.

              The fact you are incapable of understanding something doesn’t change truth.

            • ScaraTera@lemmy.worldEnglish
              2·
              9 个月前

              Exactly, satisfying the highest standard is not a criteria for categorisation. It’s the same as saying USA isn’t capitalistic because governament regulations are still a thing

          • mea_rah@lemmy.worldEnglish
            3·
            9 个月前

            This is the problem with people promoting socialism. They tend to compare idealized version of socialism with real version of capitalism. And such comparison inevitably leads to unrealistic conclusions.

            The problem is that real version of socialism is what you see in China or Cuba or former USSR. The argument with “we haven’t done socialism right” is the same as “we haven’t done capitalism right”.

            I have been born in socialist country and to this day I can see negative consequences of that era. And the obvious reason why ideal socialism can’t exist - people. Same reason why capitalism sucks.

            Edit: To people downvoting me: Your fake internet points have no meaning, but I love the irony of it. You can’t even keep the illusion of classlessness and equality in an internet thread, yet you are somehow convinced you could run a country like that. You’d be locking people for life in your communist paradise just for having different opinion and you know it.

            • CaptainSpaceman@lemmy.worldEnglish
              15·
              9 个月前

              Definition of Socialism: the workers own the means of production.

              Which country were you born in where you owned the means of production?

              • mea_rah@lemmy.worldEnglish
                4·
                9 个月前

                I was born in country where intellectuals were in jail and uneducated workers were put to management positions, because they should own the means of production or some bullshit like that. You can imagine the end result of that.

                And again, this is the same “that wasn’t true socialism” argument. Obviously it wasn’t. The socialism as per your definition can’t exist on a country level. You can see it being implemented on a small company level (think family owned businesses) but the bigger it gets the more the cracks show and it just does not scale.

                • frezik@midwest.socialEnglish
                  7·
                  9 个月前

                  You don’t need money going to shareholders in order to scale. You need management structure. Even anarchists would say they’re against unnecessary hierarchy, and at least a little structure is generally necessary. Top management does not need to be paid 300-to-1 over the average worker. Nor do they need to specifically represent shareholders, which is what a CEO is.

            • barsoap@lemm.eeEnglish
              10·
              9 个月前

              Lenin himself called the system he instituted state capitalism, it was supposed to be a transitory state as Marx said (and the Bolsheviks were very big on historical materialism) that first you have capitalism, develop productivity, then communism would follow naturally as a consequence of resolving capitalism’s inherent contradictions.

              The gaslighting started with Stalin, who invented the term “really existing socialism” to make it doubly clear that it was neither real, existed, or was socialism.

              The closest any society ever got to communism isn’t via the Bolshevik “dictatorship of the proletariat” (aka dictatorship of the state bureaucracy), but via Anarchism. Horizontal organisation, abolish hierarchies. Very early revolutionary Russia qualifies until the Bolsheviks abolished councils in practice, Rojava qualifies, Chiapas qualifies, revolutionary Spain (until Bolsheviks teamed up with fascists to kill it off), revolutionary Ukraine (until the Bolsheviks – I think you see the pattern).

              • frezik@midwest.socialEnglish
                3·
                9 个月前

                Interesting tidbit I picked up on an Andrewisim video recently: organizations from the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist branch of the left are particularly vulnerable to falling into cult behavior. It’s a reason to consider the whole branch to be bad and cut it right off. If not that far, then at least view organizations from that branch with a lot of criticism.

              • mea_rah@lemmy.worldEnglish
                2·
                9 个月前

                Yes, exactly it always fails, because it just does not scale. It’s an idea, that can’t exist in reality on a country level. You can point to Freetown Christiania as an example - a small anarchist commune, that already shows some major cracks in its structure. I mean, just grow family business a bit and you can already see structures and hierarchy emerging.

                • barsoap@lemm.eeEnglish
                  4·
                  9 个月前

                  Rojava is about 4.6 million people, about as many as Kuwait. About 11 Icelands worth of population.

        • Akasazh@feddit.nlEnglish
          19·
          9 个月前

          It’s rather anti communist to be ruled by a dictator, and certainly a hereditary one. That’s as close as you get to monarchy, which is the antithesis of communism.

          The irony is that the people are good that they live in an communist utopia, and while everyone shares the same circumstances that can hold. It’s only when living abroad when they see they are being exploited, like the rioters in this case.

        • AutistoMephisto@lemmy.worldEnglish
          17·
          9 个月前

          It’s because they haven’t winnowed the State as Marx described. The problem is that once certain members of the Proletariat get their hands upon the levers of power, they find they rather like it and don’t want to let go.

        • doctorcrimson@lemmy.todayEnglish
          15·
          9 个月前

          It’s okay to be downvoted. That just means you’re the proxy for which people question what should be questioned (even if the informed answers are already very clear), that you’ve touched on impactful and deep subject matter. Don’t be sad about a meaningless red number.

          • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.worldEnglish
            16·
            9 个月前

            Nine times out of ten, those kinds of questions are never done in good faith so they tend to be downvoted. It’s called sealioning.

            • gsfraley@lemmy.worldEnglish
              5·
              9 个月前

              Oh wait that’s a much safer term to describe those antics than what I’ve been using. I’ve always known it as “JAQing off” (just asking questions).

              • 4ce@lemm.eeEnglish
                9·
                9 个月前

                There seems to be a bit of a difference, even though both involve asking questions. To quote wiktionary:

                sealioning (uncountable)
                A type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity (“I’m just trying to have a debate”), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter, in order to wear down an opponent and incite angry responses that will discredit them.

                Apparently coined by this webcomic:

                https://wondermark.com/c/1k62/

                JAQ off (third-person singular simple present JAQs off, present participle JAQing off, simple past and past participle JAQed off) (slang, derogatory) To ask loaded questions inviting someone to justify their views or behaviours, in an attempt to make tangential claims of little verisimilitude appear acceptable.

                So the way I understand it, “JAQing off” is when you’re trying to guide your audience towards a certain conclusion without stating it outright (e.g. “Are the official numbers of holocaust victims really as solid as people claim? Are there alternative historical interpretations? I’m just asking questions here, not implying anything folks.” when you think just saying “The holocaust didn’t happen!” might make it too obvious you’re a Nazi), while sealioning is more about annoying the other party and trying to make them look bad/unreasonable and yourself polite and reasonable in comparison (e.g. “I’m just curious, is there any actual evidence that fascists are inherently bad people, as you claim? As a person with no opinion on the matter, I would just like to have an honest and open debate on this subject.” so when people reply with something like “Fuck off, fascist!” you can say “Wow, so much for the tolerant left.”). Both tactics are frequently applied by online trolls, especially of the far right, but they have somewhat different goals.

            • doctorcrimson@lemmy.todayEnglish
              5·
              9 个月前

              And this is a place where we have the authority to call people out on their bullshit and make everybody more informed in the process. Deep Canvasing is more effective than Sealioning.

              Nice iFunny watermark, heathen

              • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.worldEnglish
                4·
                9 个月前

                Ah yeah, that’s what they all say amirite?

                I’ve probably only met a handful of communist who admit to the crimes of communist regimes and acknowledged that communism in practice never lived up to the ideals. But they’re only far and few and majority of communists engages in bad faith behaviour, especially when you list all the bad things communists states have done and they go “no true communists fallacy” or “what gulag?”. Or, even if they acknowledge the arbitrary arrests and purge, they say “those people deserved it”.

                But yeah, keep feigning acting in good faith. I’ve seen this many times.

    • xenoclast@lemmy.worldEnglish
      20·
      9 个月前

      North Koreans in China showing the world how it’s done. Who had THAT on their bingo card ?

      Americans forget their middle class existed for the short time it did exactly because of actions like this.

      You don’t fight the enemy sitting on your toilet reading Lemmy posts. (It’s still fun though)

    • poo@lemmy.worldEnglish
      13·
      9 个月前

      I literally said to myself “hell yeah!” reading the headline, and then opened to find it was the top comment 😂

    • RizzRustbolt@lemmy.worldEnglish
      6·
      9 个月前

      Until China has to kill all of them because North Korea won’t take them back.

      Welcome to the Rednecks, North Koreans.

        • orrk@lemmy.worldEnglish
          8·
          9 个月前

          What exactly are you confused about?

          That the Chinese and North Koreans would rather kill 2000 people than pay them? Or The history and origin of the original Redneck?

          • NateNate60@lemmy.worldEnglish
            5·
            9 个月前

            I don’t think they’ll be killed. Neither North Korea nor China are that stupid. I do think that they’ll be forced to work until they drop and paid nothing or paid a pittance, even by Chinese standards, with the bulk of the value of their labour being split between the company that they work for and the Chinese and North Korean states.

            • orrk@lemmy.worldEnglish
              5·
              9 个月前

              dude, they decided to have a little uprising and decapitated their boss (who in systems like china gets the job because of government connections), they have done a lot worse for a lot less

  • Yewb@kbin.social
    52·
    9 个月前

    This is a coal mine canary of the future of china, civil unrest and wealth inequity for everyone!

          • metaStatic@kbin.social
            12·
            9 个月前

            because maybe it will be enough of a warning for our owning classes that we won’t have to personally get our hands bloody

            • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.mlEnglish
              13·
              9 个月前

              I don’t think China or india collapsing would make American billionaires scared. That’s a lot of new people to exploit

            • lledrtx@lemmy.worldEnglish
              5·
              9 个月前

              “2.8B people put under severe unrest is good because it might improve my conditions that are already better than them”

          • Yewb@kbin.social
            2·
            9 个月前

            USA is reserve currency for a huge chunk of the world, they have to all fail with their local currency first, you need a common ground for international trade - the US is still a reserve currency because oil mostly.

            • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.mlEnglish
              6·
              9 个月前

              So you think the civil collapse of two governments with over 2.8 billion citizens collectively would be a good thing because it would make improve the logistics of trade? /gen

      • doctorcrimson@lemmy.todayEnglish
        4·
        9 个月前

        India has some social issues comparable to the rest of the industrialized world, for sure, but on a completely different scale because of their long arduous history of marginalization and castes. China is an expansionist dictatorship which is a whole other animal.

          • doctorcrimson@lemmy.todayEnglish
            2·
            9 个月前

            China took over Hong Kong by means of corruption and military force, attempted but failed to do the same thing with Taiwan. They’ve been raiding Tibet and tearing down temples, rounding monks up like cattle. They’ve even been having constant border disputes with India. That’s all in the last decade. Imagine taking over multiple other nations in a 4 year period and not thinking that is overly aggressive for modern international relationships. Hell, they’ve even been having border disputes with the damn oceans: China landfilled the sea between Hong Kong and Borneo for military use and to gain territory in a contested region. They’ve recently been accused of overfishing with Cyanide in the Philippines, as well.

    • NateNate60@lemmy.worldEnglish
      19·
      9 个月前

      Watch the so-called “Communist” Party leaders decry this and crush it violently. Marx is rolling so much in his grave that if they attached a generator to him they could power half of China with the electricity