Even if you do something that is an oxymoron, that doesn’t invalidate your position. I don’t know if this is a good comparison, but I guess you could ask the same with makeup. Even if I don’t do it by choice and wear it because I’m being pressured into it, doesn’t make me less of a feminist or “weird” or whatever. Peer pressure can be very very subtle and we have a lot of internalized stuff going on that we may not have noticed is there yet
It’s simple: if she wants to wear it it’s fine. If it’s because they are forced to because men are so weak they can’t handle seeing any of a woman’s skin than no, it’s dumb.
In Iran women get beat up by the religious police or worse if they don’t cover up. This happens not only in Muslim countries, but also in Muslim immigrant communities.
In Turkey the headscarf is called the flag of political Islam.
Now do Canada. France. Germany. Spain. You know, just four of the dozens of countries with people who might wear a hijab.
It is intellectually dishonest to hold up the edge cases and claim that’s the entirety. It kind of undermines your credibility.
edited to add
Ah. Looking at your mod log you had no credibility to undermine in the first place.
Also:
What about Saudi Arabia?
What about whataboutism?
Also:
Whenever someone exposes your hypocrisy, the wigga cries whataboutism
Forgot the other half of the post, did you?
That alone shows the quality of your character.
Yeah I ain’t touching the rest of this thread with a 10 foot pole.
Almost sounds like a bunch of French people trying to rationalize their shitty “hijab ban” laws which exclusively target Muslim women.
It targets Muslim women because we already (for the most part) dealt with the Christians.
If you want to live in a religious shithole like Germany or the USA go for it, no one stops you.
Rage bait
Oh, look, people! ANOTHER Redcap guy lowering himself to tell us what’s what! This never gets tedious and boring.
Oh no, people might have opinions! Learn to curate your feed.
In theory yes, in practice no.
Going back to your husband who beats you is the epitomy of feminism if you really want to (apparently)
Oh look, people! A Redcap guy has graced us with his presence.
Not if men made you wear it. Or men made you think you must wear it.
Or even other women made you think you must wear it.
Social norms are often enforced by women. Yes, also aspect of patriarchy.
Same thing applied to women pressed into convents vs nuns. Or someone ordered into a long skirt vs choosing. The issue is choice, as it always is.
Then she isn’t wearing whatever she wants.
That’s the thing with religion. It’s always brainwashing so how could it ever be what they want?
Assuming all adult women who wear hijabs can’t make their own decisions about what they wear is removing their agency, not enforcing it. That’s anti-feminist.
No, I assume anyone that partakes in any sort of religious tradition does so from being brainwashed. Many traditions even outside of religion are done just because it’s the way we have always done them. Some are kept up for fun, some are kept up for control. Religion is absolutely about control.
Religion can be about control, it can also be about personal belief and faith.
If you assume anyone with faith is brainwashed, there is no point in arguing further. I hope you have more experiences with different people and the wider world so your opinions might gain some nuance.
That’s the thing, I have had experience with lots of people and cultures. That’s why I’ve arrived at the conclusion I have. Religion can make otherwise intelligent people believe the most ridiculous things.
Ayn Rand has entered the chat.
People can believe ridiculous things for any reason at all. Doesn’t mean I’ll detract from someone’s autonomy to wear whatever they want for whatever reason.
Very 14 year old mindset there.
Embrace of a belief system that teaches that women should have less rights and less agency is anti-feminist, even if that embrace is of a feminist’s choosing.
Well you can’t leave Islam under penalty of death.
It’s a child like mindset that keeps people in religions.
Why do you think style changes over time, and has accelerated with television and advertisements? We are all being made to buy and wear something, be it to follow the advertisement “this is the must to wear of the season”, or to oppose consumerism.
So if we can now agree that there is no real free choice, and every choice is to some degree influenced by patriarchy, where do we stand? Does feminism even exist? Or is feminism less about what you wear, and more about how you feel about patriarchy?
It’s not even close to the same thing… Or is there an entire purity culture around fashion where people straight up murder their children because they didn’t wear the newest jeans?
I am sure nobody ever committed suicide because they were bullied because of their clothing
But does she wear it because she likes it or does she believe “women have to hide their hair”
I feel like the second comment is acting deliberately obtuse, like it was a fashion choice without any further meaning behind it, even though that further meaning is obviously what the first comment is getting at.
There is a very political side to it too, whether you like it or not, at a time when women are being murdered for not wearing one.
I can’t speak from a Muslim perspective, but I can speak from an ex-christian fundamentalist perspective and I think that sometimes, even when we’ve made progress it can be hard to let go of some of the beliefs that direct affect you.
I stopped being a Christian when I became an adult but when I got pregnant I still held tightly to the belief that abortion was murder. I felt it was fine for others to go and do because we all have the right to choose what we do with our bodies, I knew women who’d had abortions, and I never once thought I would go to hell for it, but after a lifetime of conditioning it just felt wrong for me to do. Now I wouldn’t hesitate to get an abortion if I needed one.
Even when one has unpacked the luggage, it can take some time to reorganize it all and discard what you don’t need.
Don’t feel bad about it. We accept killing people in lots of circumstances like self defense and war for example. That doesn’t make it good either.
Legal abortion is about saving the lives of women.
Abortions are neither fun, nor desirable, but a last resort in very difficult situations.
They are also about not forcing unwanted pregnancies on women.
This is what bugs me. A lot of feminists are “it’s the woman’s choice what to do with her body” … and then hypocritically condemn women who choose “wrong”.
So much of the (usually American, sadly) Left is about attacking other leftists for not being pure enough while the right walks in lockstep.
All the women I’ve been friends with who’ve worn a hijab did it in part out of faith and in part to free themselves of the male gaze. Not the gaze of Muslim men, but of men in general. All made the choice to start wearing it on their own, as adults, and most of them eventually stopped wearing it. These were all college educated women.
This makes a ton of sense, I hate how easy it is for people to make snap judgements about people they don’t even know. I even double checked myself before posting my comment before. I haven’t gotten to know anyone that wears a hijab, here or in muslim countries.
That wouldn’t be “wearing whatever she wants” but “wearing it because she thinks she has to”.
I mean I guess? You could say I want to wear it, and the risk of being executed isn’t considered because I want to wear it anyways? I find that hard to believe, but I donno.
Not sure I follow. There are plenty women who live in countries where they wouldn’t be punished for showing their hair and they still choose to wear hijab, because they want to. That’s “wearing whatever they want” and it’s their prerogative.
I had a friend who would wear one whenever she didn’t feel like doing her hair.
It’s Threads, the entire social network dedicated to rage baiters responding to other rage baiters.
I know, there are oppressive reasons the majority of women that wear hijabs in certain places do it for. But if it’s in America for example, and not because of her family you don’t really know enough about her beliefs about herself to really question it either tbh. She is probably hated for wearing it when she doesn’t have to.
Hijab/niqab are a tool of the patriarchy. They keep women subservient to men. Abrahamic religions are inherently patriarchal and misogynistic. Women don’t wear them because they want to, they wear them because they feel they have to.
Don’t you just wake up someday and want to wear an oppression symbol like a kkk hood or a noose around your neck? Isn’t that just empowering? /s
And invalidating a woman’s feminism because she wears a hijab is a tool of the patriarchy. That is the point.
I have worn a scarf in the style of a hijab because I was protesting and wanted to reduce the amount of identifiable attributes that could’ve photographed.
I have worn skull caps (like those surgeons wear) and head scarfs to reduce the damage to my hair and pain to my scalp from the rubber straps of N95 respirators.
Neither of these occasions were men in any influence on my decisions.
Are you a Muslima or a Muslima living in a conservative Muslim country?
Well, I’m glad you’re here to tell us how women feel. For a moment there I thought I might have had to listen to a woman’s opinion.
Yeah, while the short and overly sexualizing clothing women wear in the west are of course tools of feminism, as everybody knows.
And you, most likely a man, dictating what women do or don’t do out of free will is what? Oh wait, it sounds not only inherently patriarchal and misogynistic, but also absolutely western centric and islamophobic.
Now all you have to do is to tell me that you want to see their beautiful hair, and their nice figure, and we have a bingo.
Yeah, while the short and overly sexualizing clothing women wear in the west are of course tools of feminism, as everybody knows.
Yeah, people disagreeing with the OP aren’t doing so out of a consistent commitment to feminism, they’re largely doing it out of orientalism.
Lots of women wear Hijab’s for reasons not overtly enforced by men. Lots of Muslim women don’t wear them. Lots of Muslim women who choose to wear hijabs put an awful lot of effort into styling them in ways that make them feel good. Lots of non-Muslim middle easterners wear them because that’s a part of the world with lots of sand, and getting that shit in your hair sucks.
Believe it or not, an entire religion and part of the world isn’t as simple as images of ISIS ghouls killing women for not wearing a Niqab.
If the men are also covering their hair (which is true of some middle eastern societies like the Berber people, traditional Qatari clothing, traditional Saudi clothing, etc, and Sikhs), then it’s not specifically ostracizing women in a society. But that is not true of traditional Muslim face coverings for women. And while I agree that there are plenty of sexist practices in Western society meant to hold women in their place, that hardly excuses the sexism practiced in much (not all) of modern Islam. Two things can be wrong.
Yes, of course two things can be wrong, but Muslims in western countries are usually already seen as foreign elements in society, and focusing on their oppression usually leads to even worse oppression (see e.g. France banning the Hijab in official roles, pushing out hijabi Muslims).
In my honest opinion it would be better to focus on fighting the western oppression of women. I think the liberation of women will happen by itself, given some time and the right conditions. (See Ilhan Abdullahi Omar, who is arguably more emancipated than the average western woman in a traditional relationship)
As to the question if men cover their hair, if men wear hot pants, if men wear spaghetti tops, I believe this is just a distraction, because I do not believe that feminism means totally equal clothing, but rather equal rights and opportunities.
And you, most likely a man, dictating what women do or don’t do out of free will is what?
Where did they do that?
“Women should not wear the Hijab, that’s oppression!”
Not to mention the most often have to under threat of death. If a feminist chooses to wear one it is the single most absurd garment to wear.
Not to mention the most often have to under threat of death.
Tell me, in which countries is this the case? And then tell me, which are the countries with the most muslims?
I’m sure you’ll be able to process that information to come to the result by yourself, that you’re spreading lies.
Lemmite militant Atheist ahh comment.
What you say is generally true, however it is not always true. Some women have successfully been deceived (possibly by themselves) that it is not about oppression.
This is such a paternalistic attitude to have.
Side-comment: what a surprise that the account posting the surface-level (quite possibly disingenuous) comment has what appears (to me) to be an AI-generated profile pic of a (conventionally) attractive slim blonde woman! It’s almost like it’s not an actual woman making the comment, and they’re making the comment primarily for/towards other non-women…
More seriously, it reeks of the same tone as Musk’s “concerning.” tweets.
It’s Threads - it’s just bots/trolls rage baiting bots/trolls
A woman wearing a t-shirt saying “Fuck Feminism”
Feminist of not?
Gratuitous mention of edge case.
Derailing or not?
spoiler
Yes.
edited to add
What about a woman wearing a SS uniform, or a shirt saying “women’s place is in the kitchen”?
What about obvious troll being obvious?
I would have worn the second one when I was a chef.
That would have been a hilarious choice, in fact!
People do dumb things and act against what’s best for them all the time.
The answer is not to police the clothing. That’s a symptom of problems, not the cause. What you can do is to inform and hopefully change the attitudes.
Religion has often been made to coexist with secular values. Meanwhile, people support shit politics out of ignorance and pressure.
100% agreed and, indeed, people try to shame hijab wearers in my presence at intense risk of their eardrums.
I seem to be in the minority here, but I totally support her wearing one. In some cultures me wearing clothing covering my top half could be seen as OTT but it’s really important to me that I wear it. Covering my top half when meme don’t automatically have to can be seen as patriarchy, but I would feel awful without wearing tops.
Nothing is more reliable than posting about women’s autonomy then to have men come doubt if she is even capable of making such a choice.
Clearly some men understand the effects of patriarchy on women far greater than a woman ever could. 🙄
