Text:
Panel 1 Man and woman in office clothes in a break room.
Man: So, if you were alone in a forest, would you rather run into a strange man… or a bear?
Panel 2 Woman: Oh, hmm… I think the bear.
Man (angry): How can you say that?
(Bear looking quizzically through the window)
Panel 3 Man (angry): You’re demonizing men! It’s misandry!
Panel 4 Woman: Good point. Why would I ever hear men’s reactions?
Man: Exactly! …where did the honey go?
Panel 5 Woman and bear sharing tea
Woman: At least if you maul me, pepper won’t say I made it up or I’m misinterpreting.
Bear: I hear you
“I’ve never been sexually assaulted by a bear” tends to shut this BS down pretty fast in my experience.
Tragic but valid point. Plus more women are killed by men than bears…
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I’d choose the bear, cus they avoid humans, and with certain types of bears, you can make yourself look bigger than them to scare them away (don’t think you can do that with a man)
He specifically says “strange” man.
I don’t know that I’d pick that over the wild animals of the forest even as a guy.
In the middle of a forest, the only other humans I’d feel 100% safe running into are ones I already know.
It is truly amazing to me how few people understand even the elementary aspects of risk management.
A known danger is easier to manage than an unknown one.
Bears are dangerous, but largely predictable. They usually don’t go after humans at all (and indeed usually go the other direction). And if they seem angry, there’s simple things you can do (it rhymes with “back away slowly” because identical rhymes are still rhymes) that will defuse the situation almost immediately.
Men are for the most part decent human beings. Most men you meet will not be monsters. The problem is that there’s really no way to distinguish the monsters from the decent men until it’s way too late. And extricating yourself from an interaction with a strange man in the forest is not as straightforward as it is for a bear. Backing away slowly might work, or it might trigger that silicon chip inside their brain and slip it to “overload” and make them get angry that you don’t trust them. And the penalty for making a bad choice is serious bodily harm as the good outcome. There are worse ones after that.
So just from straightforward risk assessment it’s better to meet a bear in the woods than a strange man. Because a bear is more predictable and easier to manage.
Yup.
I grew up with sisters, one of which I was able to discuss this type of stuff with.
It doesn’t have to be all men. Because it can be any man.
Some of the conversations I had with her even made me realize that I’m probaly a bit too trusting, and complacent in my being a man.
A stranger doesn’t necesserily need to be physically stronger than me to force their will on me, or otherwise cause me harm. Trusting a malicious person just once, can be lethal.
Thanks for popping in mental edge! Youve made some really interesting points. We’re women only, so please don’t comment again. 🥰
I admit my username is misleading but I am a woman.
I kind of hate this question because I keep feeling like something is wrong with me for picking the man. The biggest threat is neither the man nor the bear, it’s the forest. If you’re lost in the woods dying of exposure is the biggest danger. As a bear lives in the woods and men by and large do not, encountering a bear would be neutral (as you’re kind of in the bear’s house) and a man positive if you’re lost because a. He’s statistically likely to be part of a search party and b. Even if he’s not, hell, even if he’s the biggest asshole who ever lived, it means you’re within walking distance of a way out.
I promise I’m not trying to be a smartass, I genuinely don’t get it. I do suspect I may be autistic though…am I just being too literal?
You’re just filling in parts irrelevant to the question with things that undermine the question.
Let me reframe this so the irrelevant parts are handled and you can focus on the question that’s actually being asked.
You’re in the forest because you’re an avid, experienced camper. You have supplies. You have all the tools needed for proper navigation and orienteering. You’re in the forest alone because you enjoy the solitude and want to commune with nature to recharge your social batteries or whatever.
While you, an independent woman, fully capable of taking care of your physical needs, and not in any particular desire for social interaction, are in the forest, you have the choice of what to encounter:
- A man unknown to you.
- A bear.
Which do you choose?
That makes a fair bit more sense, thank you. At that point I would be more “on average bear, with some minor variance under specific edge cases”.
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t trying to add irrelevant information; I just admittedly have a bit of a tendency to overanalyze in general and my immediate response when this was initially making the rounds was to try and use ALL the information provided.
In hindsight, I think if it had been “a bear alone in the woods or a strange man alone on an otherwise abandoned street” I’d have clocked it a lot easier.
Sounds like you’ve had mostly good experiences with strangers, which is frankly quite nice. And obviously, you had a strong bond with at least one male, who listened to you and wanted to work together with you. He understood you, and it’s just sad that he stopped being your friend when those pesky crewmembers cured the Hex Virus.
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Yep, in North America, that works with black bears, generally.
Not brown/grizzly/kodiak bears though, as drawn in the comic.
They’ll just maul you to death.
…
If you are in forests, in areas you’re generally likely to encounter any kind of bear in the wild:
With black bears, if they are not with cubs…
…you puff yourself up and shout at them to indimidate them, assuming they are approaching you, and you can scare them off.
If they do attack, the general recommendation is to fight back. Aim for the eyes and snout, and usually they’ll retreat.
With brown bears, if they are not with cubs…
…you can wave your hands and talk a normal volume to indicate you are a human and not their common prey… and often they will stand up on their hind legs to scan for, and identify you, and then just avoid you…
… but sometimes they won’t, and they will now aggro on you. Brown/kodiak/grizzlies are generally much more aggressive than black bears, and are more likely to attack you.
Also, don’t scream shout or shriek at them, thats more likely to make them think you are prey, or that you are trying to intimidate them, which will anger them.
If they do attack you, the advice is play dead.
If you fight back, without some seriously powerful firearms, you’ll die.
Even if you do shoot them multiple times with high powered rounds, sometimes, even often, they’ll still kill you.
The advice is to play dead, because more people who’ve been in such an attack encounter who’ve played dead have survived than those that fought.
Its not guaranteed to work, just better odds.
If you encounter any kind of bear, and they are with their cubs, GTFO as fast and as quietly as you can, without breaking into a sprint, and always keeping your eyes on them.
Any kind of bear is much more likely to be much more aggressive when with their cubs.
…
Also I have found that screaming at, and making aggressive postures and gestures toward men does in fact scare a good number off them off.
Broken up a few bar fights and gotten some guys roofying drinks out of bars that way.
…
Everyone in this thread treating brown and black bears as equivalent, largely predictable threats… does not actually know enough about bears to know how to predict their behavior.
Also I have found that screaming at, and making aggressive postures and gestures toward men does in fact scare a good number off them off.
Sadly this doesn’t work for me. Which is why I have a knife or two on my person at all times. Just in case. (Dad prepared me well for the world.)
Never a bad idea generally, imo, as long as its legally concealable wherever you live.
I keep a decent multipurpose knife on me… not all the time, these days I’m less active, but I would often run into weird little situations where a small knife could help speed up some non violent procedure: random fixups or jerry rigging a quick fix for something, cutting open some packaging, something like that.
Also, of course, doubles as a means of deterrence or actual self defense, though thankfully, me personally, I’ve never actually had to use it that way.
It’s not always legal. But another thing Dad taught me was “better to be judged by twelve than carried by six”.
My lawyer has advised me against vehemently agreeing with you.
Oh, being “bigger” than other men absolutely scares them. Just whip it out and let it swing free.
Unfortunately too many jurisdictions accept the violent response some men choose to indulge in after seeing that.
That was a depressing read.
It’s fun watching how many people aren’t reading the rules before they comment.
Rule #1 isn’t all that unclear.
Rules?
Every. Community. On. Lemmy. (And in things like piefed.) Has. Rules.
They’re clearly listed to the right.
I only read lemmy via app.
If your app has no way to access community rules, get a better app.
It has, it’s just a bit hidden.
In voyager, when in the comunity, click the three dots top right and then sidebar, you will see the rules.
Oh, thanks.
Edit: Oh this is not 196, ignore. But everyone please keep in mind this community does not allow participation by men.
Also, I will still ban misogyny.
this community does not allow participation by men.
Also, I will still ban misogyny.
…
Well these sorts of posts tend to invite lots of men to “not all men” a lot.
Yep… not all men, but yes all women
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Thanks Linda appreciate you 😊
Men’s responses to the “man or bear” question perfectly illustrate the point of the question but they just. Don’t. Understand. That.
It’s not necessarily that a woman is answering the question “man or bear?”, it’s that everyone in the conversation when she does so can answer “do you respect me or what I have to say at all?” and the answer from men is often a resounding “no!” A bear would just accept someone’s answer as her answer and leave it at that.
Thank you for voicing the thoughts I was having such trouble putting into words
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Sorry for all the trolling everyone, and massive thanks to admins who’ve been protecting us you’re amazing 👏
At least I get to watch them fly into my blocklist like mosquitos into a bug zapper lol
Haha true
Yeah, I added a few more bugs into my Cornell Drawers from this.
I really am very sorry for posting this at some level. I thought it was a good take on the thought experiment (further enhanced by some pretty nifty artwork). But really, just mentioning the meme is enough to get all the CHUDs out of the sewers and into the comments and I should have known better.
No victim blaming in our group ZDL! It’s not your fault at all , it’s not 1% your fault.
The real beliefs I think a lot of the people responding secretly hold:
This bear in particular is maybe not much better than a dude. He’s gettin a little handsy.
Yep which flies in the face of evidence as few adult men are killed by adult women. But the misogyny that some men hold is just pure bigotry
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Yes. If you change all the terms of the thought experiment the outcome is different.
What an unexpected result!
What’s the difference? Why does the woods or store change the danger?
Come back when you’re ready to talk in good faith.
Right now you’re just being a troll. And not even a particularly clever one.
(Hint: A reading in good faith involves reading ALL of the words of the thought experiment.)
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And yet if the panet were made of only lava everyone would be dead! I can make non-sequitors too!
Bears in a store is just as suspicious as men in the woods. Neither are safe for women.
What if the store is in the bear so when you get eaten you find yourself stuck in Hot Topic?
Ha! Didn’t think of that one, did you?
Honestly, would still rather the hot topic infested bear I think… Might even be OK with a Spencer’s.
“If every man in a store was a bear” is a very specific gay fantasy 😉
Beep.
If you said you would, I wouldn’t believe you.
You dont live in an area with black bears. They’re not scary, having to chase them away from garbage or equipment isnt that uncommon.
I’ve lived where there were polar bears.
Those are scary.
Still rather meet one of those alone in the wilds than a man I don’t know.
That kinda seems like overcorrecting, at least half of men won’t eat you given the chance, most polar bears will.
I addressed this elsewhere in the ensuing shitstorm. It’s a question of risk management.
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My read is that women fear men as much as the fear bears. And that while a bear would maul her and eat her, she’s still going to be blamed for being in a situation where that would happen.
Men get wrapped up in “I’m safer than a bear” without considering just how much victim blaming happens to wonen and how often they are ignored and attacked for things men do to them.
What needs to happen is men recognizing that there is a problem and working to resolve it. “It’s all men until it’s no men” is for women’s safety, and isn’t a direct reflection on individuals.
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But generalizing the problem to all men is the biggest reason men who might otherwise be allies are pushing back.
Except, of course, nobody’s¹ doing that. Hell, I said the precise opposite:
Men are for the most part decent human beings. Most men you meet will not be monsters.
This doesn’t stop “men who might otherwise be allies” from reading it as a personal attack on “all men”. Despite, as I just quoted here, me saying exactly the God-damned opposite.
Which leads me to believe they are not actually men who would otherwise be allies since they can’t even muster up enough respect to read the words that are actually there choosing instead to beat the stuffing out of straw men.
¹ Before you trot out someone who did say that, do a quick count and a slight division to see if the proportion who you can find actually saying that are large enough to count as anything but a rounding error. Believe it or not, most of the women who would choose “bear” in the thought experiment have men in their lives.
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When I said “nobody’s doing that” (with the proviso that yes, surely, SOME people genuinely are that stupid) I meant it. I used myself as an example of someone saying the precise opposite and still having it interpreted as “MISANDRY!!!111oneoneoneeleventy!”
With #ManOrBear, you can spend ten thousand lines explaining that you do not believe all men are evil, slavering monsters who will assault women if given the chance to do it and then one line asking the thought experiment and you’ll still get the “MISANDRY!!!111oneoneoneeleventy!” response. There is no way to communicate the very important message of that thought experiment without having a bunch of “men who might otherwise be allies” freaking out. (Which to my mind calls into question their value as potential allies.)
Thank you for that point of view.
I think there will always be assholes etc. so it would always be all men. What needs to change is that we step in and tell others when they act like assholes, to at least stop it sometimes. But that takes courage. Are we training boys to be courageous? To not accept bad behavior of others, even when it is against a third party?
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You’re the one who brought racism and religion into this. If you’re upset that women don’t trust you, there are healthier comparisons to make. Also, you might be a part of the problem. Accept that you might need to reflect a little more carefully, and be willing to accept that your opinions might not be healthy.
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Tell me you didn’t read the thought experiment all the way without using those words.
Hey ZDL! I can’t edit your post do you mind putting women only community in the title? Seems to be some male allies (and not) in this thread that haven’t realised.
Done.
Though my theory is this will attract the misogynists, not drive them off. At least, though, the decent men will understand.
Yep… main benefit is they can’t claim ignorance
I go to sleep. I wake up the next morning. And the mods have been the thin pink line.
Thanks, mods!
You’re welcome Z, I cant take all the credit though Linda has been amazing. And I fucking love thin pink line!
Hey captain Morgan thanks for stopping by! We’re a trans inclusive women only group so please don’t comment again 💖
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Haha good one lurch! Just fyi we’re a trans inclusive women only group, so please don’t comment again 😊
I really like this comic and sadly it’s true. I know nothing about bears and I’m physically disabled so I’m gonna pick the man. I can talk to him, and I know a bit about men but the bear I’m fucked.
Really cute art style here, I love the pooh-bear thing at the end. It’s the man that asks for the honey, heh.
I feel like this thought experiment is a shiri’s scissor. My take on this is that the worst humans are more dangerous than a wild bear. Here’s the quantitative version: what percentile of dangerousness in man would you pick over the bear? For me, I would switch from man to bear at the 90% percentile – I think the 10% worst men are a riskier proposition than the bear.
Point is you don’t know whether the man is a good one or not when you bump into him.
Right, this is why the quantitative version is more revealing.
I think the quantitative version is too fantastical for me to think about. We would never have enough information to know the percentile of the individual man in front of us.
I agree with you but also, I stand by my assertion: if I’m in nature and see a bear that’s good. If I’m asked who I’d rather keep bumping into on a trail, obviously a man, I’ll be polite and if he gets too creepy I probably have bear spray.
I’ve been reading manga on a site that allows comments after each chapter and holy shit @ the comments any time a female character is in a role even slightly villainous, or even if there’s a possibility she might be interested in anyone other than the male protagonist. Comments calling for rape, torture, murder… It even happens in romance genre mangas, where the stakes should only be as high as “will they get together and navigate their issues?”
It’s no wonder women choose the bear because with some men, they are one misunderstanding away from the man who supposedly loves them wondering if he “needs” to get extremely violent with them. And somehow they convince themselves that “love” is involved.
I’ve run into both in the woods and I’ll take the bear 100% of the time. And yes, I’d even take the bear who had two babies galumphing along behind her. I carry a gun for both encounters and would likely only need it for one.
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