If Josh Shapiro wins the nomination I will not vote for him, I cannot stand this nonsense, this is absolute insanity. How the hell are modern Democrats less progressive than FDR (and he was a massive racist), we are a century ahead yet we are centuries behind. Now we’re fighting over which fascist is more palatable so when can whitewash them and call them progressive. I voted for Kamala in 2024 but NOT AGAIN, I will NOT vote for another mild flavor of fascism lite.
Because DNC are controlled opposition.
This whole discussion has been a fascinating read in the comments.
But does anyone really think we’re going to have another election? Much less a non-rigged election?
The system was already rigged, of course. Electoral college, absentee cancelations, felons disqualified. It was broken before so even if things stayed the same (which they won’t) it’ll still be broken.
I do expect elections to continue. Just much less honestly.
“They” being tens of millions of voters in the primaries. You could be one of them, maybe?
Its never about what the majority wants. Its what minority wants. They are fat satisfied one percenters and the only thing they hate worse than a maga is letting the little people have a choice.
Did you listen to the latest tiff between David Hogg and James Carville?
Carville really wants to push progressives out of the Democratic party while keeping their heads in the sand. I think his last rant was because Hogg wants to replace existing Dems (Carville says he should be replacing Republicans). However, I think Hogg wants to do this because these Dems aren’t really doing anything and waiting to pick up the pieces from this Trump administration. I think agree more with Hogg that it’s more important to show the people that you represent them rather than be like: “we’re not the Republicans”.
I’m not an entire fan of Hogg though, he seems a bit inconsistent but I agree with him here.
To be clear, people should have voted for the Democrats. We’re all in the position we’re in because not enough people did. Would you get what you want? No. But we still wouldn’t be in the mess otherwise. I mean, assuming the election wasn’t stolen.
That being said, all these older people that don’t seem interested in fighting for their people need to be purged from the Democrats. I don’t know if it’s because they’re really old or out of touch or what. There’s a thirst for people to want representation for them to fight (as seen by the AOC and Bernie rallies). I think their inactivity isn’t helping for the most part. Also, they need to get some more names out there.
Hogg wants to replace old, “do nothing” incumbents with younger versions of Pelosi, Clinton, Jeffries.
Hogg wants young, centrist, corporatist Democrats, not progressives.
Yeah, I’ve been low-key following this drama and Hogg is out there spearheading the “tea party style takeover” that people have been saying the DNC needs. Carville, Schumer, and Co. seem to think that letting the republicans off the leash to blow up everything and hurt everyone is the best path forward. Put another way, the plan is to continue offering shitty corpocentrism and hope that voters prefer corpocentrism (clothed fascism) over naked fascism again in two and four years. Fuck that and fuck them, Hogg can take my energy and blast those fossilized assholes with a spirit bomb.
It’s because the democrats simply cannot fund-raise on the kind of populist progressive policy Americans actually want.
Democrats are up schitt’s creek without a paddle - they can’t fund-raise without the support of the large donor-class, and their increasingly populist progressive base are simply not satisfied by the kind of economic policies those donors are desperate to preserve.
If democrats stay this course they will never hold more than 45% of congress again and only win the white house maybe once every 3 or 4 terms.
I’ve brought it up on other Lemmy comments, but one thing I really want to work on with messaging is “Eat the rich”.
Case in point: Elon Musk is evil. He’s a toe-sucking narcissist who can’t stand that South Africa ended apartheid. He’s a loser that can’t beat the first Path of Exile boss. He’s…make up your own insult, and I’ll likely echo it. But what I can’t stand is commenters saying that anyone and everyone possessing as much money as him is equally evil. Basically the equivalent of so many school “Zero tolerance” policies.
Musk is evil for his actions, not just for personality. Yes, a large number of rich people are also evil - there’s logic behind that venn intersection. But capitalism is our system, even if we decide we want to start changing it. Past the big names of horrible people that have lobbied the system for their own interests, many rich people are just…quiet outside of their main successful ventures. One very ready playbook of the far right is to point out how many Democrats - even honest ones that have made excellent changes - are evil simply for having net worth in the millions. As long as “Eat the rich” is a popular slogan, it tends to work, and convince donors that progressives are out to hunt them down with axes.
My take on a better message would be: We all want a better world. Have you ever wandered the streets of venice, wishing you could have that nice communal feel back in America - unburdened by homeless people, dirty streets, or traffic? This is our goal. House the homeless. Clean the streets, and encourage recycling. Put people on public transit. Progressives will tax you more to make that work, but will make a better world for it; one where people don’t need to hire private security to protect from betrayed employees, or shelter in an SUV to go two blocks. If you’re a businessman, vote Republican. If you’re an honest businessman, vote Democrat.
The message could use some work, but perhaps you get the idea.
All the career federal employees that have lost their jobs because of Musk numbers in the thousands. Their knowledge, skills and experience with federal programs just wiped out because of that freak. The true cost of this is just beginning. Nothing is going to work soon.
If democrats stay this course they will never hold more than 45% of congress again and only win the white house maybe once every 3 or 4 terms.
Yeah I’m feeling that.
You bring up really good points. How do you go to the large donors and say, “give us more money to help take more money from you”.
Yes, the Dems are fatally infected by AIPAC and are best put out of their misery. That said, given the people voted for Trump, they’re unlikely to vote for AOC. She doesn’t appeal to knuckle-draggers.
interesting fact: NY 14th district voted for Trump AND for AOC in 2024.
similar split ticket voters can be found across the country.
Trump represented change, violent chaotic change, but change nonetheless. mainstream Dems cannot (will not) offer that. however progressives like AOC at least promise to fight for change.
your point stands still, just worth considering that Trump voters are not a monolith, neither are AOC voters.
what they have in common: they both want CHANGE.
You’ve hit the nail on the head, and I sit and have this and other similar conversations with my brother, and they always boil down to change. And it’s a devil you know kind of argument, but the devil we know (establishment politics) has whittled away at the middle class consistently since it’s explosion in the 1950s. And it’s more than just policy, but down more to things like interpretation of the constitution and separation of powers.
And so we are in for a wild ride, and the smart thing for Democrats to do would be to put up their own candidate who stands to be the antithesis of Trump, and not this amalgamation of populist ideals, but a platform for change across the board. I like AOC for that, but we won’t get that. We will get another establishment Democrat who tries to run on the same policies they just lost on, or whose platform is blanket undoing of Trump policy. The Democrats need to not be an anti-Trump party and instead be an actual progressive party.
Trump won mostly because of an apathetic Democrat voter. We don’t need to win over republicans, we need to energize people who didn’t vote.
Yep, 45% of eligible voters stayed home, and exit polling showed a radically different picture of the average american than even most of the people here on leftist sites like Lemmy want to acknowledge.
The average American is tuned out, they don’t care about politics because it’s too complex, too stupid, too controversial and too easy to feel like you’re being lied to. So as a result we had millions and millions of people who voted on grocery prices and egg prices as their primary concern, and said Trump seemed like a “better shot” because the prices seemed bad under Biden and Harris just seemed like more Biden.
They didn’t care about criminal investigations, about character or morality, they didn’t care about Ukraine and they sure as shit didn’t care about Palestine. (Maybe some did, but not in a meaningful way that connected votes to outcomes.) The average american works 6 days a week, spends their one day off taking care of their family and home, and catches a few hours of social media before bed. They read a few memes on facebook and that informs their politics.
Guys, out there in lemmyland, you need to listen to this next part and internalize it. Roll it around under your tongue until you get it: many voters said they would have voted for Bernie Sanders if he ran, but saw Trump as a close contender.
Our nation’s political acumen has been surgically removed. This was by design. The bulk of this country doesn’t hold onto strong political values. They shift and bend with whatever happens, and don’t give a shred of a shit about hypocrisy and consistency.
We do not win this nation with smart, progressive candidates who have educations and experience. We win with characters and celebrity and face-value, direct, dumb messaging. The median voter doesn’t care about outcomes unless it impacts them immediately and noticeably. People may want to be good and do right deep inside their hearts, but at the polls people look at their wallets first, and connect that with the last meme they saw.
We need to be smarter in the background and dumber on stage.
We do not win this nation with smart, progressive candidates who have educations and experience. We win with characters and celebrity and face-value, direct, dumb messaging. The median voter doesn’t care about outcomes unless it impacts them immediately and noticeably. People may want to be good and do right deep inside their hearts, but at the polls people look at their wallets first, and connect that with the last meme they saw.
I agree with this because it confirms my belief that everyone is an idiot.
I agree with this because it confirms my belief that everyone is an idiot.
You’re not at all wrong. And in the words of a great man: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
You can also open a can of worms by deciding to figure out what you’re also an idiot about. I promise it’s never what you think, and it will change you in ways you might not be prepared for.
I just assume I’m an idiot about everything
Same. Not even sure what we’re talking about, but same.
If you do that all the time, but then make a point to learn even a little about the things you know you’re an idiot about… slowly, gradually, something really amazing happens.
I understand the scope of the field and realize I’ll be an idiot forever?
Well yeah: America Is a conservative, religious country. Always has been
As a non-conservative and non-christian american, i approve of this comment.
harris is polling at like the second most popular frontrunner for 2028 it’s delusional to think if harris gets the nomination it’s because she wasn’t popular
I still feel like the dnc is going to lean heavy into Buttigieg. He’s young, an eloquent speaker, a sharp debater. He clearly is down to play ball with the dnc establishment as they want him to (stepped aside for Biden to get a cabinet position) , and they hope that he’s baggage free enough (Kamala and her Marijuana prosecutions) that progressives will vote for him. Yes, he’s gay, and the hardcore magats won’t like that, but I think older suburban voters would rather have someone sane that’s gay than insane and straight.
older suburban voters would rather have someone sane that’s gay than insane and straight.
Based on some older people in my family that disowned their own child: doubt.
Then it will be 2016 all over again
Leftist leadership or the status quo are the options
And only the rich want the status quo anymore
He’s young, an eloquent speaker, a sharp debater.
Those things only matter to nerds.
Everyone else will see “Butt” in his name and giggle
I think you vastly underestimate the hate conservative voters have for gay candidates.
if they have any hope for a candidate it’s someone like Tim Walz. old, white, trustworthy, and a “too old for this shit” attitude.
If you don’t like trump and you didn’t vote, then you’re to blame.
My country has compulsory voting so nobody has an excuse
Is you didn’t vote for Harris, you’re to blame.
No, it’s the Republicans who are to blame. The Democratic leadership is to blame for not putting up a candidate or policies that the voters wanted.
It’s always amazing to me that people will blame the people who couldn’t stomach to vote for the Democrats, rather than getting mad at the Democratic leadership for being so awful that people can’t stomach to vote for them.
True! One is an ocean of random people with their own beliefs, reasons and personal choices. The other is an institution. An organization with a plan. A plan they wrote themselves. A plan they get detailed statistics and polling data on. A plan in which they saw what they needed to do to win and chose not to, effectively betting on anti trump sentiment to keep them from doing the thing parties in their position are supposed to do. Concede to the people and make concessions. Instead they said “status quo, steady as she goes” mid genocide, mid rent crisis, post covid and they lost that bet. No one is to blame other than the gamblers who played power politics and lost to fascists.
The people are not an organized voting block able to strategically maneuver their votes. That’s what a party is for. That’s it’s whole purpose. And the Democrats failed as a party in that election due to their inability to stop committing a genocide, to stop pandering to mid right voters via radio silence on trans issues and active abandonment of immigrants via the adoption of 2016 trump immigration policy.
I mean come the fuck on, she was talking about FINISHING THE FUCKING WALL, the thing we all agreed was the dumbest thing ever. What do you want when the party runs someone like that?
I get you people who wanna blame the leftist in your life or on the Internet you saw saying they wouldn’t be voting. I get that you blame them. But you should blame the party who thought they could win without conceding anything whatsoever to any of the marginalized groups who had no other choice. They learned that there in fact was a 3rd choice and now we all suffer the Democrats incompetence
Yeah I agree. I see a lot of folks out here victim blaming rather than critiquing the folks with the most power.
Removed by mod
If my country had compulsory voting and my choices were trump and harris I would have voted for mickey mouse. Or do they send somebody in with you to vote for an approved candidate? Because that doesn’t sound like anyplace I’d be interested in living
If my country had compulsory voting and my choices were trump and harris I would have voted for mickey mouse.
A stunning example of exactly the kind of performative pro-genocide bullshit that put us in this mess. Wonderful.
No, the Republicans putting up a shitty, awful, terrible candidate that was somehow more likeable than the Democrat’s shitty, awful, terrible candidate, who came in on the coattails of another shitty, awful, terrible candidate was what put us into this mess.
I’ll never accept the claim that Trump was more likable than anyone; no matter how many Take That critiques people can sling about anyone on the Democratic party.
I don’t think he was more likeable, but enough people did that they voted him into office. It doesn’t really matter whether you accept that or not.
I didn’t vote, and it doesn’t matter that I didn’t vote.
There are mass counties that had 0 Harris Votes and all DT. This is a statistical impossibility. On top of the already impossible results we’ve seen with the election anomaly all point together at obvious voting fraud. The election didn’t happen as you think it happened, it happened because billionaires conspired together to put a lunatic at the helm.
Hope you’re enjoying the current democratic backsliding the USA is experiencing. It’s partially your fault for letting it happen.
Really, how do we get viable third parties? How do we change the voting system to not have " spoiler candidates "? The binary is rotting us.
We’re nowhere near to it. It has to be a grassroots effort from convincing all of our population it is necessary. Because neither the DNC or the RNC really want it. More parties means they lose power. The DNC pretends to not be opposed, but they undermine third parties all the time. We have to fix first past the post, and neither party is going to help with that.
You go out and work in the primaries.
Look at AOC. The guy she ousted was a mainstay of the NY Democratic Party for decades.
If you wait until the general election you get no input.
But that’s not the end of it as this still maintains the binary. First, what are the measures for getting third parties on the ballot? Second, how do we get rid of the fptp system so that we can actually vote for candidates we like, rather than the lesser of two evils?
Edit: I responded too quickly at work, and fixed it up later.
I’m no fan of FPTP, but let’s not put the cart before the horse.
You aren’t going to change the rules for the 2026 primaries.
Concentrate on what is doable.
1000% this. Half our problem is people bitching that their perfect candidate is not an option, and that they don’t want to vote ‘against’ someone.
The time to be active is NOW, not complaining about your choices in October 2028. Left media isn’t helping here, since they want to complain about how the election is still years away and yet we’re talking about potential candidates… YES, we are. If you’re not talking now, then you’re not in the conversation. Is it great to have a 24x365x4 political cycle? hell no. But is it what we have? yes.
Join your local democratic organization and get familiar with how things work. Help choose a ‘not fascist’ candidate for now and push for better down the line.
If you’re here, reading this, and you want things to be better, then you have two choices: vote blue no matter who (ceding your choice to others who are involved), or get involved and be part of the decision of ‘who’ is blue.
how do we get viable third parties?
By having a third party that’s willing to put in the work and do things the right way.
So, instead of having a do-nothing candidate like Jill Stein who shows up right before every election, then disappears again after only obtaining a half of a single percent of the total votes, we’d have to have a third party that started focusing on winning local/state elections. That would allow them to start having more than ZERO members in the houses of Congress, which is currently the case. And once they have members in Congress, from various districts around the country, then they’d have a real chance at running a presidential candidate who can win.
Make no mistake. Anyone that currently votes for a 3rd party candidate for president is an utter fool. And there are A LOT of them on Lemmy. A 3rd party cannot win. They are nowhere near winning. Because they haven’t put in the work to create a coalition to actually start having a presence in our government.
Don’t neglect that Stein was a Russian plant to spoil the election. Follow the money and Stein’s activities pre and post election.
Yeah, it was pretty obvious.
But whether she was or not, a 3rd party candidate for president can only serve to split votes and increase the possibility of the worst candidate winning. And that will be the case until a 3rd party starts getting serious and getting representatives in Congress.
It’s a literal joke to vote for a 3rd party candidate when they don’t even have reps in either house of Congress. Do the people who vote 3rd party not think about what would happen if one magically won when they have no one from their party in Congress to help achieve their agenda?
Not by going directly for a moonshot at the presidency. You spend years getting people involved in local politics, then work your way up. State and local governments have power, even if it’s “boring”.
That or a coup or other violent, abrupt, wildcards.
Local government isn’t boring. It’s infuriating. It’s like if you gave the worst HOAs a police force.
Whatever it is, most people don’t engage with it.
I tried to and then realized that they can’t actually help with the main things I want changed, and that they’re just sad little kings of sad little hills.
1.) Federally and statewide, you’ve got to vote for the party that isn’t making Ranked Choice or Star voting illegal, for starters.
2.) Locally, third parties have to actually run local candidates. They are a vanity party otherwise.
If you can’t manage those two things, math & chaos theory guarantees that you’ll never have a 3rd party.
I want Approval Votingand Sequential Proportional Approval Voting, but will support any electoral reform referendum or bill.
And when those get enough name recognition with the electorate, the GOP will start passing bills to make them illegal in red states.
How? Probably not via voting in 2028 or holding a sign. As in, not within the pre-existing failing/failed system. This one isn’t gonna recover.
After the people are in charge of the smouldering ashes, you can start from scratch! The one upside. Assuming USA doesn’t just submit passively and end up like Russia with a broken people for centuries, which is what I’m expecting.
Copy Canadians. Including the limits on campaign length, so your news cycle isn’t so endlessly exhausting. No wonder 1/3rd have totally tuned out. IMO scrap FPTP like we didn’t have the balls to do.
I guess that’s the crux of the question: does it really require smoldering ashes to get this done? Entrenched power is obviously tough times, but within the system we currently have what are the possibilities?
Not sure anyone really knows yet. I’m a pessimist by nature, so there’s blind spots and I freely admit them.
Have you considered just having like a local group organized around something like pro-labor or just the community in general.
Elect officers or organize how you think best. Call meeting invite guess to speak to issues you all like. When elections come around try to solicit questions to all the campaigns. Have the organization vote as a group on who to endorse or not at all.
If it’s worth the effort, work the campaigns for the folks you all endorse.
More people did that stuff then starting a third party in state would be easy. From there you go forward. If you do well or brand then you may have others in their region wanting to do the same. National two parties are federations of these groups with more binding Charters.
Many States have these hurdles for recognized political parties but they can’t stop folks from just organizing how they want.
What you need is a Bernie Sanders funding his own political party, then recruit the AOC and likes. Then they constantly for 20 years present on themselves and refuse to compromise with Democrats and call them on their bullshit whatsoever.
But idk why they didn’t do it sad for you
You do know that “they” do not pick the candidates right? It is called a primary election and it is where anyone registered in the party can go and vote for WHO they want to be the candidate. It is the part of the election that is voted on by the tiniest little minority of both parties but has the absolute biggest impact on the race.
You don’t like the shit ass candidate for your party? If you did not vote in the primaries then you have no right to complain. Go vote in the primaries and complain away. Otherwise suck it up and suffer, just like all the non voters who are hating Trump at the moment. Got no one to blame but yourselves.
Did they even hold a primary? =S
The primary was in 2020.
If Sanders won that and was incumbent during 2024 primaries, he’d face practically zero opposition in primaries.
Primaries would never happen during an incumbency. I hate it, but that’s the fault of this “Incumbency Advantage” phenomeon.
Okay but the point is they should’ve been able to run a wet paper bag against Trump and win.
Dems chose someone worse than a wet paper bag.
It wasn’t the wrong candidate, it was the wrong campaign.
The Dems stood in front of an electorate crippled by 4 years of rising cost of living and said “Look how good the economy is! GDP is up! Employment is up!” The electorate said “We can’t afford eggs,” and the Dems said “Shut the fuck up our economy is great how dare you say otherwise you worthless peasant!”
The Dems never stopped to consider that high GDP is meaningless if all the money ends up in the hands of billionaires and high employment is meaningless if everyone is working three jobs to make rent. Biden refused to allow any daylight between himself and Kamala on any issue, so they ended up just presenting a new wrapper on the same shit sandwich.
Trump meanwhile said “I hear you, everything is too expensive. I’ll solve it by blaming immigrants and doing some magic involving something called tariffs that I promise will make everything cheaper.” Now, none of that is actually a solution, but that didn’t matter, because when you yell “Help, I’m drowning!” and one person says “No you’re not”, while the other says “Yes you are and it’s because of brown people…” you don’t really listen to anything past the “Yes you are,” because the point is they apparently want to help you and the other person doesn’t. Trump didn’t need to have workable solutions, because the Dems forfeited the entire contest before it even started. Trump just had to show up and sit in the chair.
I dunno. Pretty sure a wet paper bag would have been better than a felon rapist traitor who’s shitting on our Constitution and tanking our economy.
Right, that’s why they were worse.
🔴
We have two corporate parties, the status quo and the controlled opposition. They occasionally switch labels but until we get the corporate out, we will never have a real choice.
