Hi,
jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy, some user posted this thread 16 days ago : https://jlai.lu/post/11504685, and a flamewar ensued between hexbear and the french, e.g. between happybadger and their administrator here.
Since they didn’t really have any reason to defederate initially, they’re now adamant that they should defederate only because of this discussion, since it proved that every Hexbear&Lemmygrad user is agressive(, as if jlai.lu users weren’t agressive in this discussion as well).
I still find hard to believe that they could defederate on such weak basis, and it does feel like a convenient excuse, but that’s what they’re saying, ask them for confirmation if you don’t believe it either.
They also used a list of post found on /c/MeanwhileOnGrad@sh.itjust.works as if it was representative, but it hardly counts as an argument, what a stupid situation…
They’ve now pinned this post for 12 days, and the defederation with both Hexbear and Lemmygrad seems unavoidable.
I’ve known this for more than a week but didn’t care that much, yet when talking with them, and especially @Camus here, they/he said that they/he would like to talk to you. @Camus is very patient/nice, and you can look at his number of comments/posts to gauge his influence, probably their most active user(, kind of a french ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆).
Well, to be more precise, he informally asked for some excuses from Hexbear, but my post here didn’t reach them, perhaps because of “r*tard” in my username(, r*tardataire designate someone who’s late in french).
However, more than excuses in the name of others, you only have to show him that we’re not aggressive(, if you have some time, it won’t change much in the end), something very easy/natural to prove for >90% of Hexbear users(, and perhaps >70-80% of Lemmygrad 🙂, it does feel a bit more bitter/serious here, not a criticism).
They have some communities that aren’t that far apart from what could be found on Lemmygrad or Hexbear b.t.w., so it can’t really be said that they’d reject us solely based on terrorism apologia, supporting Stalin, etc.(, even if their “leftist” admin is against socialist countries because our capitalists said that they’re authoritarian).
Staying federated with a french instance would be useless for 99% of Hexbear and Lemmygrad, so if you intervene it’d mostly be on the behalf of current/future french users(, it can be nice sometimes to speak your native language without using an alt account), and perhaps also for Lemmygrad and Hexbear’s reputation on jlai.lu.
If you’re french, and/or simply nice, and want a chat with them, feel free to do so directly under the post or with @Camus.
(Kinda worth mentionning in passing that, currently, their top two posts of all time sorted by the most comments are the ones cited above about this defederation)
Also, keep in mind that this defederation is unavoidable though, if it doesn’t happen now it’ll be next year or the year after. As you know, reddit banned ChapoTrapHouse, GenZedong, etc., and we were quickly banned from lemmy.world and others, so we’ll one day be banned from other “centrist” instances such as the french one. Just like we’d also be banned/censored by our governement if our numbers grow enough to disturb/‘be a threat’.
Furthermore, Hexbear took action, and decided to defederate first without even trying to discuss more calmly. So don’t waste too much of your time either(, but please don’t go there unless you intent to speak calmly).
Thanks for reading :) !
Since OP pinged me, and is also banned since for this attempt at brigading/shit stirring and overall bad faith posting, I’ll do a quick recap of what actually happened.
Some jlai.lu guy got manhandled somewhere on the lemmyverse by a hexbear user and opened a thread on the Meta community of jlai.lu, used to discuss the instance functioning.
Pretty much told him to fuck off, that’s internet for you, I don’t intend to defederate.
Some hexbear and grad user then, for some reason, ended up in this thread behaving like monkeys shitting in their hands and throwing it on people.
Most of jlai.lu users then, when confronted to these people, wanted nothing to do with them and wanted us to defederate.
Since it was not one guy anymore and me having something else to do in my weekend to handle children on the internet, opened a vote to see if it was a general request or just a few people wanting to defederate.
The vote is still on-going, and hexbear defederated us because I guess they didn’t like people challenging their bullshit and hurting their circlejerk.
The list of things listed in the thread is the list of reasons I was given as a reason to de-federate. I didn’t check because I simply don’t care since I’m against the defederation in the first place. I gave my standing in the different threads and in separate comments, as long as what I think of tankies and overall defederation.
I, as a long time internet user, even participated in the flame war because I think this is funny, but actually replied to people actually wanting to discuss.
I’m still not for defederation because I think this is a nothingburger that ended up a subject entirely because of your (grad and bear) own making, but since there is no positive or interesting participation between our instances mostly due to the language barrier, I won’t veto a defederation if the overall community don’t want to bother with your toxic members.
You said the people here and on Hexbear deserve to be thrown down a well, and you have the nerve to come here and whine about civility?
I told you the fr*nch are scum
deleted by creator
As I said on hexbear, I thought that an obvious reference to the Chinese tale of the frog in the well, in this context, would be funny, but I guess there was some over-expectation of the level of literacy of the average reader.
Even then, taken literally, this post was made well after the thread where you people were asking for terrorist attacks in France and overall genocide of French people, so I once again would like to point out the double standard.
Also, there is a difference between whining and explaining, but whatever you want to make yourself the victim, bébou.
You can hide behind Shrek references to make your threats if you want, they are still threats.
Everyone thinks what you said was gross, and your response to that is a classist “they think I’m gross because everyone else is so less educated than me”. That’s not it bro, it doesn’t matter, that’s not what the problem is, you can rob a bank and tell the police “but it was just a reference to Casa de Papel man, don’t you get it?” it won’t change anything about what will happen to you. This is literally you right now.
You need to log off and try to do some self-criticism. And if you find yourself in leftist spaces again in the future, know that you won’t get any sympathy with classist remarks in those places.
fueling the flamewar i see
Frankly what is the point of saying that ? Hexbear and Lemmygrad users insulted them as well, can’t we just live in peace, like i can’t argue for them to accept us if you reject them
In any case it’s close to midnight in France so he probably won’t answer anyone here
And I recommend every Hexbear and Lemmygrad users who brigaded jlai.lu and insulted them to do some serious self-criticism too. I don’t want to pretend that what was said wasn’t grave when the person behind it tries so hard to minimize it, that entire episode created a lot of heat and I don’t want it to be for nothing, I want to see some growth emerge out of it.
I don’t mind disengaging and let you handle all of it, I would prefer it actually, but in the end there can’t be acceptance if either side think they can disrespect the other.
Wow, it’s the perfect example of me not realizing that someone was really nice in the end, i’m sorry.
Engage all you want, just i don’t think that he’ll be there and it feels useless/‘less constructive’ to be agressive, but you’re ultra-nice in this comment do what you want :)
I realise that my comment could be seen both as mean or as “nice” (I wouldn’t go as far as calling it nice personally, maybe neutral), It’s complicated to convey tone and intent through text. Also I’m particularly tired so I’m not making the best efforts to put in the form. Anyway I’m done for the night.
Yep, je pars me coucher moi aussi
J’avais totalement oublié que tu étais la même personne avec qui j’avais parlé ici et là d’ailleurs(, j’avais regardé ton profil pourtant, avec un ctrl-f pour jlai.lu, mais oublié que t’avais changé de compte, dsl, j’aurais juste pu checker dans ce post-ci)
à + !
“I’m just joking about murdering you bro, come on, it’s your fault you’re too ignorant to get it” – this sort of shit is why I told you to fuck off. You are just trolling and getting the appropriate response: disrespect.
You don’t get to whine about this when you do the same exact thing. You can either be honest, acknowledge that people get heated on the internet sometimes, and acknowledge that you do that too, or you can keep up the insults and pretend like there isn’t shit all over your hands as well.
Look lets not be unable to self reflect here, there has been a large meme that I do not fully understand the context behind, nor the bennifit from, of randomly hating french people, and this is a problem, especialy when you cary that into the french instance. You are right that it is probably not the best look especialy for an admin to mention throwing us into a well, but lets also be congnsent of our actions here too, when you start out on anti-french sentiment, for reasons based on frenchness, you are not going to get welcomeing results, and to be honest starting a flaim war is the best possible interpritation of that.
My point is that if one says things like this, I’m not going to care if they complain about the same kind of violent wishcasting being aimed at them (and I’m definitely not going to care if they tut-tut about someone merely being abrasive or profane). They’re just being dishonest, and there’s no reason to engage with that.
Besides, none of this is about saying mean things anyway. It’s about a few of the most active users over there thinking that if you support AES states you’re a fascist. They aren’t willing to have any sort of good faith conversation with you or me; they think we’re basically brownshirts, they think we should be thrown in a well. One of my first comments in their defederation thread was asking this Anansi asshole a genuine question about atrocity propaganda – no insults, no jokes, just “the west has lied about this in the past so I’m skeptical of them today.” The very first reply included:
That’s what they think of you and me. This is what they are upset about – not mean words – and they are unwilling to discuss it.
Look what I am saying is that us wishcasting because someone is french, is not going to help, and is far more damaging to our aims and allows them a way to immedatly deflect any of our points, its not helpful and it also and opens up the door to shitposting that only elevates the tempreture.
Also are you saying you are so unprincipled that insults are going to make you lash out? that because they do not know what they do not know, and are opperating on the propoganda they are fed and bombarded with? We need to keep our cool, WE need to learn how to discuss it with a hostile audence. Unless this is your first day as a Marxist you should both know and expect this to be the thoughts on our opinions, we cannot let that break us into insults and “edgelording” no we must keep our cool.
Agreed. I don’t make those sorts of comments, and I’ve pushed back on them under this username and others in the past. But I also understand there are good reasons to be deeply angry over the crimes of empire, and I’ve seen how being perfectly civil doesn’t get you far, either.
When someone responds to a discussion of atrocity propaganda with “I hate you, you just want to kill minorities,” you are no longer trying to discuss anything with that person. You’re now making arguments for the people reading along. You don’t have to be a doormat to do that, and being too conciliatory can give the impression that your argument isn’t that strong.
To cite an intellectual :
If you could read more than a sentence, you’d have read that in my response above.
Yeah, I respond in a flame war started by stupid people because it’s funny, but when I come with a witty reference after you call for a french genocide, you are here whining and projecting that behavior on me lol.
You’re just trying to make yourself a victim, I get it, but I don’t really care. You could have called for my mum to be raped I wouldn’t have cared any less.
My point was just that tankies came in a thread to throw shit, and now are crying that shit are being sent back. You just think I’m trolling because you missed a reference to a tale that we are taught about in primary school, you do you.
Fuck off
See, should have read the rest too!
Do not message me ever again
I can say that I was never tought that tale in school, personaly
I never heard about it before either : https://zhongwenhub.com/frog-in-the-well-5-ways-to-use-the-chinese-idiom/
Here’s the wiki, and out of the 348 fables translated in english here, it is among the 20 ones translated in other languages
I’ve already said that both sides fueled the flamewar, but it’s worth adding that anansi agreed there was a great deal of shitposting that day, and honestly i also feel that it’s worth repeating that it’s not a good reason to defederate because of that since it doesn’t happen often.
Furthermore, it did happen under a post that was vexing, usually a warning followed by a temporary ban towards the angriest(/hurt) members of Hexbear and Lemmygrad could be resorted to in order to appease some tensions, defederating wasn’t an option on reddit. It feels like jlai.lu shouldn’t defederate with Hexbear and Lemmygrad at least if it’s solely for this reason.
That has nothing to do with the fable you found; it’s very plainly “those people I’m comparing to Nazis should be killed like Nazis.” Surprise surprise, “it’s a joke bro!” yet again turns out to be bullshit.
Excellent point, i forgot to explain, here’s the comment :
Which in french is :
Mon avis personnel, pour ceux que ça intéresse, est que ces deux instances sont remplies de ce qu’on qualifie ici de rouges-bruns, tankies, ou encore fascistes de gauche.
Ce sont avant tout des autoritaires qui aiment se dire de gauche, mais utilisent les mêmes outils, ont la même vision politique, la même organisation, et ont tendance politiquement et historiquement à s’allier aux fascistes “officiels” dès qu’un mouvement réellement de gauche révolutionnaire émerge.
Je trouvais tolérable de “ne rien faire” tant qu’ils restaient dans leurs coins, mais j’avais un peu oublié qu’un autoritaire reste un autoritaire et que la seule place qu’ils méritent est dans un puits, en n’oubliant pas de frapper les mains qui tentent de sortir avec un gros bâton.
In English :
My personal opinion, for those who care, is that these two instances are filled with what we call here red-browns, tankies, or even left-wing fascists.
They are primarily authoritarians who like to call themselves leftists, but they use the same tools, have the same political vision, the same organization, and tend politically and historically to align themselves with “official” fascists as soon as a genuinely revolutionary left-wing movement emerges.
I found it tolerable to “do nothing” as long as they stayed in their own corner, but I had somewhat forgotten that an authoritarian remains an authoritarian and that the only place they deserve is in a well, not forgetting to strike the hands that try to climb out with a big stick.
In this metaphor we, the authoritarians, are trapped in a well, with a narrow mindview, just like the frog, who believes that the small circle of sky s.he sees from the bottom of the well represents all there is.
I guess that it’s also true that he spoke of putting back the frog if s.he wants to see the outside world, but hey, it wasn’t a lie though, and there’s possibly also some version with a stick somewhere i haven’t checked in depth.
The link with the 348 tales clearly wasn’t relevant to understand the context of the well, with a frog in it(, appropriate for a french b.t.w.), but it’s a real thing in the chinese culture, the first link had this quote for instance :
For added context, here’s the mention of the frog, and here’s the one prior to that on hexbear : https://hexbear.net/post/3822135/5583877
First, I am going to say I do agree with you hexbear is super fast to their own detrement with defederating, this seems to come from there olden days isolation and fear of anything changing there culture, I am not sure if it is about challenging their views or not, however I will agree they weild bans and defederations incredibly fast.
Second everything I got was through re-reading the thread both with my attrocious french skills, so I gave up and ran it through google translate. and I would agree that what happened was a nothing burger, it seemed like mostly an argument where one person was upset being called a Nazi Sympithiser and the other was upset that their claim was being miss represented, with lots of claims of brigading that from what I can tell was not likely what was happening. I am not a lemmy expert but I do know that it is possible to find organicly posts on other instances, and it turned into a total mess.
I would like to challange that this is entirely because of the grad and hex for 2 reasons, First i do not remember very many lemmygrad users, and second this was bringing up not just the personal grudge match of the idividuals, but calling for a defederation and pulling something from a year back, we also have people calling for a change in platform because the devs of lemmy have Castro profile pictures. This is not to say users from here and hex have no blame, as that would be rediculous, there was no attempt to prevent the tempreture of the discussion to rapidly rise.
Third I do take issue with the final labeling intentional or incidental that all of the members here are toxic, There are users from other instances that will start a fight merely because you use the grad or are a .ml user, so both in the userbase here being toxic, and on the range of toxicity I do not think as a whole we rank super highly
lastly, still not sure why this post was needed
I’m not sure why some on jlailu were so insistent on singling out both lemmygrad and hexbear because I did a ctrl+f on that first defed thread and only found two comments from lemmygrad users. Unless there were other threads I missed this was about the extent of “our” participation.
From my exprence we seem to be the larger over all target, and long term, hexbear seems to be more out there and easier to point at for “bad behavior” so we get lumped in together every time. You will never see someone just complain about hexbear, they will always lump us in with it.
I’m pretty sure that it was just for context if you’re referring to the previous post about defederating.
To which you don’t even see me entertaining the argument.
I also call for a change in platform, but it’s because they are shit devs and project managers, releasing broken updates after broken updates, ignoring security issues and overall not being good devs.
I don’t care about who makes an open-source product, but that’s another subject.
I mean they came over already hot, I’m always up for shitposting but seems I’m in the minority.
Tbh you were just put in the toxic tankies bin with hexbears because you are the only other instance users that came up directly flinging shit in the initial thread, your initial reputation and I cbb.
I thought that you wanted to defederate because you didn’t like tankies, but even the german instance has defederated, and many more, the french one kinda seems unavoidable as well
Thank you very much for the effort of posting here, you’re behaving in a more adult manner than some people (t)here, and even it’ll probably not lead to much, i sincerely appreciate the effort/sincerity
(bye :))
I don’t like tankies, I even hate them and all they represent historically.
But as I said openly in the initial thread, this is not enough of a reason to defederate.
My mistake for thinking it was enough reason for you to defederate then, 👍
We’ve already talked about it, but for the others my point of view is that you’re believing anti-communist propaganda from a capitalist-owned country 🤷