Mod Note: I’m bending the "no politics’ rule to highlight a disgusting trend I’ve been seeing on Lemmy lately. Due to the sheer volume of comments fitting that trend and the huge number downvotes given to anyone who speaks out against it, I’m convinced this opinion is truly unpopular in the Lemmy-verse. This is also topical and important enough to merit discussion or at least to provide a point of reflection. So while it touches on politics, that’s merely the framing device of current events being used to highlight a larger problem.
As you’re inevitably downvoting this, at least take a good, long look in the mirror while you do so.
The sheer number of people here praising the shooter, advocating for, glorifying, or just flat out calling for violence has been a real eye opener and litmus test for the kind of people I’ve surrounded myself with on this platform. Suffice it to say, a lot of you have failed that test spectacularly.
A rational, independent thinker should be able to condemn this kind of violence even when it’s targeted towards their “enemies.” Political violence has absolutely NO PLACE in a healthy society, and no one should be praising or advocating for it. No one. Ever. This is one thing that, regardless of the paradox of tolerance, should be universally condemned.
There are, apparently, a ton of extremists here that don’t see themselves as such because they believe their extremism is justified and that they’re on the right side of history. Ironically, which is what all extremists think.
This goes back further than just yesterdays’s events. For example, it’s been a common refrain since the Supreme Court presidential immunity decision that, paraphrased, “The current non-dictator president should do dictator things to stop the other dictator”. Which is just another flavor of “Extremism is bad except when it’s my flavor of extremism”.
Don’t give me that “it’s just gallows humor”, “I’m oppressed, and he deserved it”, “if you had a time machine, wouldn’t you go back to 1934…”, “we haven’t been a healthy society for X years…”, or other excuses. This is a BFD with major implications and ramifications, and y’all Lemmings are treating like we just missed the exit ramp to Utopia and are trying to find a wide spot to make a U-turn.
It’s certainly fine to have no sympathy for the guy (I sure as hell don’t), but it’s another thing entirely to be cheering on, promoting, and/or advocating for extremist stances like those being thrown out lately.
You say you want a better society? Then act like it!
Moments like this are the true test of one’s character and intellectual honesty, and I’m beyond disappointed in so many of you.
I’m certainly not upset that someone tried to take out the guy that literally said he wanted to become a dictator if elected. I don’t think that political assassination is the right move in most situations, this included. On the contrary, I think someone should put a bullet in Putin’s head. So I ask where do we draw the line? Currently the system is corrupt and is shielding Trump from consequences. That leaves the people with few options. What is 2A for if not to defend the country from a tyranical dictator? To me, this is a “leopards ate your face” situation. Trump has been fucking around, and the people are bypassing the broken legal system so he can find out. I’m sad he lived.
Edit: To stir the pot a little more, I’m all for guns being illegal. If there were better gun policies in the USA, this wouldn’t have been possible. So this is Republican policy in action.
Defense with violence from other, already-engaged violence is one thing. Accelerating towards new violence is another, and is not going to truly fix a problem.
–Comment from Carrolade@lemmy.world above
If Trump were in the morgue right this minute, it would truly solve many problems. I don’t want someone to kill him to get there, rather an embolism, heart attack, or rabies would be ideal. If some unhinged individual pulls a trigger, I’m not condoning it, but I’m also not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Edit: There’s also got to be perspective. If you’re an immigrant, he has threatened your entire family and lively hood if reelected. While not explicitly a violent act to defend with violence, it’s not far off.
Trump is a symptom, not a cause. Hes a grifter, a con-man, not a political strategist. He’s capitalizing on an environment that gives him power, and others are capitalizing on his distraction.
And him lying dead in a morgue doesn’t stop it, if anything it would galvanize his base to prove that everything he (and the people using him as a lightning rod) are saying.
It wouldn’t be the end of something horrible, it’d be the start of a whole new horror show.
Nikki Haley or someone like that wouldn’t be the next nominee. Ron DeSantis would, in the current gop climate. Not really much of an improvement from the policy perspective, same authoritarian crap in a slightly more sophisticated package.
I don’t think Desantis has the support to pull it off. He had such a bad showing, that I don’t think there’s enough time to repair the image enough to those that matter before November. Regardless of who the candidate would be, I don’t think any of them have that thing that makes MAGAts love Trump so much, and none of them have the same ties that Trump made during his Presidency that I think are most dangerous to our future.
Outside of that, there are still plenty of other benefits and solved problems outside of just the election that would be solved.
I don’t think all those MAGA supporters would support a non-MAGA. They refer to them as rhinos.
Agree. Someone would obviously take the nomination, but I don’t think any of them have the support to win an election regardless. I personally just don’t think Ronald would get the nom.
not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Not looking a gift horse in the mouth is one thing. Praising the mysterious benefactor who dropped it off or asking for more gift horses or a better gift horse next time is crossing a line.
I’m not doing any of those things. I’m not asking for more violence or even condoning this last bout. I do think the world would have benefited from Trump’s death, but I would prefer in not come from the hand of a USA citizen. If his death comes from a politically motivated shooting, I’m not going to be upset, but I won’t go glorifying the shooter.
The post isn’t directed at any one person, and if you feel called out, that’s between you and your conscience alone. The post is directed at the general, lynch-mob mentality that’s running rampant.
“A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.”
–Agent K, Men in Black
That’s fair, but I don’t know that the mob mentality out there is as pro political assassination as you are letting on. I’d imagine the majority of people that are upset that the shooter missed have a similar outlook to me. For a moment, millions of people saw that headline and thought their prayers were answered, most just won’t say it out loud.
The potential disaster if Trump is elected could negatively affect not only millions in the US, but potentially countries all over the world. It’s cliche, but this could be a go back in time and kill Hitler situation. I’m not saying it is, but there is the potential. The legal systems, Congress, POTUS, et all have been failing citizens for years to hold corruption accountable. People are getting pissed off, and some are being pushed to the edge. It’s less about being politically motivated, more about future preservation to many of these people.
I’d say this is like the trolly problem, but this is easier. If rapist, felon, traitor Trump is laying on a set of tracks, and 1 million people on the other set. Now, the trolly might split the tracks and “only” take out some migrants build a new section, but the person behind the lever could make a decision that affects the outcome.
Regardless of the reasoning, justified feelings or not, the extreme rhetoric is just adding fuel to an already raging fire. I stand firm on that opinion.
I agree with you, however denouncing political violence doesn’t need to extend to fawning.
This is my favorite proposed response I’ve seen:
If I was a Dem asked what I think this would be my short statement:
History has shown us that political violence like this is a hallmark of authoritarian states.
That it turned against the man inciting it shows how slippery and dangerous our current moment is.
Come November we have a choice – an America where a man like Trump, who believes lynching his political enemies is fine, sits in the white house while fires of political retribution burn across the nation; or an America where our fragile democracy rests in less unhinged hands, safe for the moment.
doesn’t need to extend to fawning.
Fawning?
Not saying it’s what you’re doing.
Really just trying to say some folks are being more gentle than they should and over correcting.
As usual, the best way is a middle ground but the internet rewards extreme positions.
Gotcha. Was scratching my head as to what could be seen as fawning in my rebuke of this kind of behavior. lol
“Character” is just as much a social construct as gender is. What you call a “test of character” I call a “natural human reaction.”
When you learned about all the evil Hitler did, did you scold the people who celebrated his death? What about Stalin? Pol Pot? Mao? The US government assassinated Bin Laden and the Iraqi people hanged Hussein- did you decry them not being tried for their crimes? Should people not be happy that Lee Harvey Oswald got what he gave out?
Plenty of historians have drawn parallels between what’s happening in the US today and where Weimar Germany was in the 1920’s. Obviously I’m not saying that Trump is on the same level as the other people I mentioned, but if a person truly sees the historical connections, do you blame them for trying to avert what comes next using more extreme methods?
The fact is, political violence has been ingrained into American myth since its inception. Every year of public school we’re taught that the people who overthrew the government with violence were right to do so because they succeeded, while the people who tried to secede with violence were wrong to do so because they failed. Why would you expect any American to not think otherwise? People like Washington and John Brown are hailed as great American heroes for using violence.
On top of that, Donald Trump is a man that the legal system is bending over backwards to prevent him from facing any consequences whatsoever from crimes he’s committed. The “process” isn’t working- is it a shock that when the system is failing the people, the people will take matters into their hands? The voice of the people is systematically being silenced; people will therefore resort to whatever means they have to make themselves heard. This is a constant throughout all of human history.
And not just that, but Donald Trump is the head of a political party that shrugs its shoulders when hundreds of children are murdered in schools or churches or malls annually. Every time a school shooting happens, Republicans rush to decry Democrats for “politicizing” a tragedy to avoid any sort of gun control legislation from even being discussed. Should people not feel some sort of vindication at seeing the party that refuses to address gun violence in the US suffering from that refusal?
So, yeah. I think that someone being upset that a person tried to assassinate a political candidate is a rational response. But I also think it’s not unreasonable to have other feelings about it too.
I don’t think there’s necessarily anything inherently wrong with believing that his death would solve whatever issue people hope it would. It’s not obvious to me that this would be the guaranteed outcome, but I guess I can’t blame anyone for thinking that.
What I do take issue with is endorsing this kind of behavior. I don’t want to live in a world where we solve political debates by assassinating the opposition. That’s not how civilized people behave. Do I mourn the death of Hitler or shun the people celebrating his death? Of course not. Would I have preferred for him to be caught alive, tried, and sentenced to prison for the rest of his life? Yes.
If Putin accidentally wandered into Finland tomorrow while picking blueberries in the forest and gets arrested, does he deserve to be hanged in the marketplace and made an example of? Yes. Is that what we should do? No. That’s what they would do. That is exactly the moment we’re supposed to take the moral high ground and show people on the other side that we have principles and we’re better than that. This is the test so many people failed today. They act like the people they oppose.
The founding fathers did not attack the British. They declared their independence, and then were invaded. Defense and attack are different things.
It’s true that the Confederacy was itself invaded after declaring its own independence, no question. But then what values were being defended? The right to own other humans as chattel? Not quite the same.
The Americans did shoot first. Militiamen marched on powder and arms warehouses in Lexington and Concord and after being ordered to disperse by a British colonial, shot at the regulars assembled there.
Yes, and the Confederates shot first in the US Civil War. However, who fired the first bullet has nothing to do with who is invading who, or who is starting a war. These are all three different things. That would be like saying the first shot of WW1 was the one that killed the Archduke, and not the actual countries that declared war on each other and marshalled their armies.
There are many ways to respond to a single atrocity or even battle. The British could have, if they wished, withdrawn. Similarly, Fort Sumpter could have, if they wished, surrendered.
… praising the shooter, advocating for, glorifying, or just flat out calling for violence …
There’s a big difference between the above, and recognizing that the world would be a better place without Donald Trump in it.
The latter is not what I’m describing, though. That can also be clearly stated without venturing into the former.
Still worth making a note of.
Not much of a difference, that is very much Who will rid me of this turbulent priest territory.
Context is everything. When the King of England says it about his political opponent, that carries a whole lot more weight than when some rando on the internet says it.
This is why when Trump amplifies “Internet Rando” posts about having Liz Cheney go before a military tribunal (for example), the amplification by Trump is more chilling than the original rando post.
Trump says awful things! However, from what we know about yesterday a 20 year old aimless man made an attempt on Trumps life, and killed one bystander, and seriously injured two more. Was this 20 year old influenced by the ‘end of society’ rhetoric during this election cycle? I don’t have data, but it seems likely. The collective culture we demonstrate has outsized impact on the more impressionable people in society. Which is why its important to hold to our principles even in conversations.
Political violence has absolutely no place in a healthy society
But we aren’t in a healthy society. If anything, this shooting is proof of it. This isn’t an excuse. This is a claim that your arguments will fall on deaf ears.
I’m not cheering this (I would go as far as saying that I hate what happened), but I don’t think people who have/are doing so, are displaying abject character or intellectual dishonesty. I think they are misreading the current political context, and I think nothing good will come of this.
Trump has caused unknowable deaths from the policies put into place during his presidency, and with Project 2025 would (will?) cause even more.
Pacifism becomes extremism when it cares more about policing and shaming those who vent their frustration at the current state of things. “missed the exit ramp to utopia” is a hell of a way to convince people to listen to what you have to say with an open mind.
Political violence has been happening for years, and this is what gets us a mod post ? I would venture that I am just as disappointed in my fellow lemmings as you are, but frankly, this feels almost as tone-deaf and unhelpful as those calling for blood.
Now is the time for constructive advice. Bandying about “extremism” helps no cause but that of inaction.
You want a better society? Go outside and organize. Help people feel prepared for their future. Leave those calling for blood on an online forum to be picked up by the feds and law enforcement. Or talk to people like you care about them, not picking up after the mess they will make.
People are dying of hunger, of lack of shelter, of preventable diseases, of working 3 jobs without breaking even, and they just saw one of the rich fucks that spent 4 years making their lives worse dodge death and supercharge his followers. Now you expect them to calm down because someone online invokes “rational, independent thinkers”, after preemptively accusing them of downvoting a post that they have yet to read.
Shooting Trump is not how we get through this. Making this post with this tone is not how we get through this, either. I don’t have the answers beyond “find a better way to get your point across or you will just push away those you are trying to reach”. Hopefully I have not, myself, fallen into the same trap with this comment.
The way I think about posts like this, as I tend to create them myself too, is that if it makes even one person stop for a moment, reflect on their behavior, and hopefully act differently in the future, then it was worth it. At the very least, I can’t imagine it making things worse. It’s also a kind of sanity-check for the minority of users who agree but don’t want to voice their unpopular opinion.
I do admit, though, that if the tone of my writing is so off-putting that it bounces off people, then my time writing it has been wasted.
It’s also a kind of sanity-check for the minority of users who agree but don’t want to voice their unpopular opinion.
Good point. There is certainly value in, and a certain need for, this kind of post.
Ideally we could find a way to do without them, but maybe that’s not possible with online, text-only interaction like this format.
I worry that a post like this tends to reinforce most people’s existing positions and behavior, rather than help them “cool off”. In that aspect, I feel like I can imagine how it makes things worse.
After some more thought, I don’t think OP’s post is making things that much worse. I’m doubtful as to how much it makes things better, but that might just be because it struck a particular nerve with me.
You’re not wrong, but step one of problem solving is admitting there is a problem (in this case, extremism).
While the post is (intentionally) harsh, it’s no less an accurate spotlight on the toxic attitudes being displayed by those who claim to oppose authoritarianism / fascism / whatever bad-ism but spout out opinions that amount to “but a little bit is okay when it’s my side doing it”
All this heated rhetoric is adding more fuel to an already raging fire, and that bleeds out into the real world with real world consequences.
All I’m asking is for people to look in the mirror, take a good look, stop encouraging/cheering/advocating violence, and try even slightly to turn the heat down.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I’ll admit, I haven’t yet looked at the modlogs so I’m ignorant of exactly what has made you feel the need for that level of harshness. I feel like too often, a conflation is made between “doing a little authoritarianism is ok when it’s my side” and “doing a little authoritarianism is ok when it’s a matter of life and death”. I suspect that I let that excessively color my impression of your post.
I’ll admit, even now, I’m not comfortable with the “look in the mirror” line. I don’t think someone openly expressing regret that the shooter didn’t kill Trump would be surprised by what they find in the mirror’s reflection. In fact, I almost expect that regular mirror-gazing is what leads one to feel the level of animosity towards trump that would be needed to say something like “if only he didn’t miss”. Then again, maybe I’m mistaken with how many are/have been saying that flippantly vs as the result of a lot of prior thought and questioning.
Otherwise I agree 100% with your last 2 sentences.
It’s not all of Lemmy though - on Feddit.uk, nobody’s even mentioned it. The Britons are just discussing the wide variety of meals you can make by combining chips, cheese, beans, gravy and curry sauce in different arrangements.
Fair enough.
The Britons are just discussing the wide variety of meals you can make by combining chips, cheese, beans, gravy and curry sauce in different arrangements
Got a link? lol. That sounds right up my alley.
Abdicating the lawful, peaceful transfer of power would be insanity.
Yes… it would… cough January 6
Yup.
Donald Trump has incited violence for the last 4 years, he gets grazed by a bullet or a shard of glass, people rejoice! Why? Because the psychopath who wants America to burn to the ground just got some of the violence HE caused. Karma.
Celebrating another’s misfortune is one thing (not condoning that, but it’s not what I’m talking about here). Sinking to his level of violent rhetoric is not what we claim to be. That’s the issue.
I choose to read the post in Patrick Stewart’s voice.
I love that. lol. Gonna try that myself (except for the y’all. my brain cannot produce that in Patrick Stewart’s voice)
The sheer number of people here praising the shooter
Post links because I haven’t seen one yet.
Go take a look at lemmy.world modlog. Most of those messages have been rightfully removed.
https://mbin.grits.dev/m/asklemmy@lemmy.world/t/235087
You might have to view it via web browser, it has been moderated away. Lots of people there saying oh we should give them aim training, they shouldn’t have missed, they deserved it, etc etc etc. lots of very concerning things.
Some more examples, its not just the comments, its all the upvotes on incitements of violence. Remember most people here are lurkers.
Please take target practice beforehand next time
> assassination is obscene >>In this case I would call it “self defence”.
Don’t worry man, I’ve noticed an uptick in crap, but for the most part I’ve just seen a large uptick in trolls. They’re coming out of the woodwork right now, they latch onto stuff like this to stir the pot.
You and I don’t agree on everything, but we definitely agree on this. Just don’t feed the trolls
It’s Eternal September for Lemmy these days. I’m part of that wave too. I noticed a lot of my takes get downvoted to oblivion!
You and I don’t agree on everything, but we definitely agree on this.
Having seen you around, agreed, but in a good way. Like, the things I’ve seen us have differences of opinions on are all such that you could legitimately change my mind on some of them (and I would hope the reverse holds true). Those are the kinds of disagreements I like.
They’re coming out of the woodwork right now, they latch onto stuff like this to stir the pot. … Just don’t feed the trolls
Also agreed and yep, have seen the same uptick.
Well said.
This is how we genuinely defend liberty and equality, the values so many brave soldiers died on battlefields all over the world to protect. Far more effectively than wishing for yet another blood drenched battlefield, liable to get the same results as all those in centuries past.
Did the US Civil War end racism? Did WW2 end fascism? Did the assassinations of MLK Jr or Abraham Lincoln end the fight for civil rights? No. Because ideas cannot be destroyed, they can only be effectively fought with other, better ideas. Not blood and steel.
Defense with violence from other, already-engaged violence is one thing. Accelerating towards new violence is another, and is not going to truly fix a problem.
👏
I said something similar last week, but less concisely. Was downvoted to hell for it because it went against the lynch mob mentality.
Some of the responses to this post are truly encouraging in a “faith in humanity restored” kind of way. So thank you for being one of those.
Well since we all post here for the sole purpose to please you, I am sure I can speak on behalf of all of us when I say-
Nah, go ahead and say it.
I think i said it pretty clearly.
You think the content you see is bad? Check the modlogs. People really went over the top in some cases
Oh, I’m sure. Appreciate the work you all are putting in :)
I’m an admin. I see it all, even stuff that’s been removed and the lurkers silently cheering that shit on (which is what utterly broke me and inspired this post).
I haven’t seen anybody praising the shooter. I have seen about bunch of gallows humor. Is that what you’re talking about?
No, gallows humor is one thing when it’s not a thinly-veiled praise (which much of it is).
The mods have been working overtime, so that could be why?
Then you should be able to link to the mod log of the removed stuff
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/modlog?page=1&actionType=ModRemoveComment
Varies by instance’s point of view, naturally, and Lemmy UI doesn’t allow filtering by community or searching by “reason” (even though the API supports the former), but there’s your home instance’s.
There are a few there, but nothing to support your initial claim of it being rampant
The upvotes on the incitement of violence are the concerning things, lemmy is lurker heavy.
