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The woke is coming from inside the house!
They were worried about exterior pedophiles this whole time when the interior pedophiles were the problem the whole time!
This guy just solved right wing politics
My uncle has a male pictogram on his bathroom door and a female on the door to the kitchen.
If he ever enters the kitchen he becomes genderfluid
Ah shit that reminded me to change the gender fluid in my car. Thanks.
I’ll give you some gender fluid 🤭
I wouldn’t trust them, might steal your face!
Needless to say, aunt shits in the woods
No, she shits in the kitchen.
What else are garbage disposals good for
It’s just a bougie poop knife
Your family has a poop knife too?
many fist sized chunks of uncle.
I see the uncle has a fine taste
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Is anybody honestly against single occupancy gender neutral bathrooms? I always took it to be a matter of multi-occupancy bathrooms.
here is an example. im not educated enough to know the specifics, but this would bar single occupancy gender neutral bathrooms in most cases except when the building is too small it seems.
the fact that it is going to legislation at all is of course absurd and obviously just anti-woke posturing. if the government cares about “dignity and privacy” they’d ban communal bathrooms in the first place.
Pretty sure it doesn’t ban single occupancy bathrooms. It bans multi-occupancy gender neutral bathrooms - like bathrooms with stalls that share the same set of sinks. Don’t get me wrong it’s still dumb, but not as bad as you are thinking.
okay fair thanks for the correction. i think we can still both agree that it’s obviously just meant to antagonize people over a non-issue in order to maintain a culture war tho 👍
edit: okay im reading through again and i think i was right? and they are banning both? i welcome the insight of others in interpreting this bc now im confused as hell
As part of the regulations, contractors can construct “self-contained universal toilets” which the government said may only be constructed if a “lack of space reasonably precludes provision of single-sex toilet accommodation.”
Oof okay I guess it’s worse than I thought. I swear they had some provision for non-binary people, but i guess they just hate queer people.
I don’t agree with dismissing everything as a distraction. I think some conservatives legitimately do care about this stuff. I also don’t think people would suddenly turn anti-capitalist from just not having distractions. People are generally dumb as shit, and most the alternatives to capitalism are also shit because again people are dumb. If you are going to replace capitalism you need to come up with something that’s both actually better, explainable to the public, and overcome the baggage of all the experiments that failed.
agree, but i don’t think i said anything about capitalism?
if anything this is conservatives continuing to use the existence of trans people, less than 1% of the population, as leverage to fearmonger themselves into public approval. i wouldn’t call it a distraction as much as plain vanilla fascist oppression.
Normally when people talk about maintaining culture war they are talking about it being a distraction from the problems created by rich people and capitalism. It’s the same people who say “no war but class war”. Same guys who call conservatives fascists.
Are you telling me you aren’t an anti-capitalist?
no i definitely am an anti capitalist lol. this conversation is beyond my education level maybe.
What the ever living fuck? Why? For what good?
Will British Airways be required to have separate toilets for men and women on their planes? If not, what is the reason for the inconsistency? If it’s allowed on an airplane, why is it not allowed on the ground?
they won’t change it on airplanes obviously
the reason for the proposed legislation is literally just to capitalize off fearmongering. conservatives have successfully built a fucked up narrative that gender neutral=trans and that trans=rape, and so now they can pass bogus legislation that just inconveniences people in order to maintain power.
obviously
If I’ve learned anything from the past 8 years of politics, it’s that nothing is obvious.
Some would argue offering women a man-free bathroom is feminism, YMMV
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No, not really… But multi-occupancy isn’t that different. Every stall has a lock, same as out houses.
its about the efficiency of urinals versus the trauma of cross-traffic.
Trauma of cross traffic? Don’t you pass the opposite gender in the hallway to both gendered bathrooms anyways? Does the presence of a sink really make it suddenly traumatizing to be within view of the opposite gender?
I think it’s a psychological thing. At my job we have lockers for all the workers in the main bathroom. I don’t see it going neutral for that fact alone. But when you get into the bathroom it’s fine to relax and rip a fart or whatever. I’m assuming it’s the same in the women’s room. Or so my sisters tell me.
Cats and dogs living together!
Everytime this nonsense comes up I point out communal bathrooms are the problem. Maybe someday people will understand.
My church has these which is pretty funny to think about
It’s a case of efficiency. Stalls and urinals take less space than single occupancy bathrooms - which translates into smaller buildings costing less money to build, maintain, heat, a lower impact on climate and also allowing a higher efficiency usage of land.
Besides, most places that have stalls also have at least one large gender neutral single occupancy bathroom with extra features such as a baby station and disability adaptations.
Unless there suddenly becomes a huge demand for gender neutral bathrooms, I don’t see why that additional bathroom wouldn’t be sufficient to serve people who can’t use the regular bathrooms.
Someone must be, if the UK is banning them.
Well, they’re not. It’s only multi occupancy ones, which I’m not sure why they’re banning because I’ve literally never seen one anywhere.
Standard all mouth, no effort needed policy by the Tories.
Huh, I must have got the wrong impression from the angry lemmy comments that were my only source of this information.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-building-requirements-for-separate-male-and-female-toilets
The aim of the new requirements will ensure that:
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separate single-sex toilets facilities are provided for men and women and/or
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self-contained, private toilets are provided where space allows to ensure privacy and safety
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mixed sex shared facilities are not an option, except when lack of space allows only a single toilet
I don’t quite understand. Why is the third point necessary if the second point exists?
And what do gender neutral toilets looks like in the UK currently if having self-contained toilets isn’t it? I’ve never seen gender neutral toilets with American door gaps.
I’m not sure on the third one either tbh. A shared facility with a single toilet? I can only assume the Tories have been hanging out in some strange places.
-
I believe this is England only. Health (which I believe this will fall under) is a devolved matter and the other governments are thankfully a bit more sane.
The gender stuff is just a distraction from the resource hoarding and exploitation of the working class. The people in positions of authority or power (like 0.0001%) don’t really care about their religious “beliefs” etc. or whatever else drives them to say they care about gender neutral bathrooms. The only real belief for such 0.0001 percenters is self preservation.
But there definitely are useful idiots in the lower ranks who are manipulated using religion to pretend they’re all somehow morally superior while they’re being cowardly or petty.
Idk it always seemed like knowing that gender is a social construct / or performance clarifies how to resolve the exploitation of people in the working class who have to perform oppressive roles because of their gender. It really is emancipatory as in it allows no linkage of production roles with biological attributes, for starters. And even allows the working class to stop dividing itself on the basis of gender. There will always be short sighted or selfish actors who turn the movement towards bourgeois interpretations.
True. The more divisions between workers we eliminate (be they gender, race, national origin, whatever) the better it is for all workers.
The most impressive bathroom layout I’ve ever seen was pretty open concept. It seems strange, but let me explain.
Directly off of a major area was basically a hallway, on that hallway was a set of doors. Full sized doors. One right after the other. Each door led to a room which is smaller than most closets, containing a toilet. That was about it for what’s in the room. Of course the usual toilet/stall amenities were available. At the end of this hallway of toilet closets, was a long sink for handwashing.
It was entirely gender neutral, and there was zero risk of rape or any other perceived danger.
I’m sure the closet stall design took up slightly more floor space than your average bathroom stall. Honestly it seems like a small price to pay to have a room all to yourself when you’re doing your business.
I’m sure that adopting this design would get cries from the fragile men about their precious urinals. Honestly, fuck them. The toilet does the job, you animal.
You REALLY overestimate how much men like urinals. Have you ever seen an urinal at anyone’s home? Men would be perfectly fine with toilets.
That’s some interesting conjecture there. Clearly you and I know different kinds of fellows.
Some of the guys I know would rather piss outside than go find a toilet. A tree is about as close as you can get to a urinal in nature. I’ve also seen guys wait for a urinal when toilets are clearly available.
Of course, not all men are like this, but I’ve met a nontrivial number who are.
I’ve known guys who had urinals installed in their homes and whatnot. IMO, it’s weird, but they can do what they want.
To be perfectly clear, I don’t believe that represents the majority of men, but an outspoken minority can be noisy enough to push the needle one way or another simply because the majority doesn’t care one way or the other. It happens all the time.
There’s also the mindset of maintaining the status quo at all costs, whether because those people simply do not want to adapt or change, or because they want those that don’t fit into the narrow heteronormative viewpoint. The underlying reasons change, and sometimes people are genuine in their reasoning, but it’s all reasoning to keep with what we have and not change to something that is objectively better.
wait for a urinal when toilets are clearly available
To be fair, I think that’s a misguided attempt at being “polite” or maybe even “fair”, as in they don’t need the toilet, so they’d rather not tie it up in case someone else does need it. But with as little time as it takes to piss, it’s a pretty pointless gesture.
Agreed, that would be a pointless gesture.
Most of the time when fellows use the toilet when the urinals are full, which does happen quite often, they don’t even fully latch, or even close the door for the stall.
However, the fact that this is true, does not negate that there are a nontrivial number of guys who won’t use the toilet on principle.
Both things can be true of different people.
Some of the guys I know would rather piss outside than go find a toilet.
I’ve done that a few times. But personally it’s because a urinal is quiet and a toilet isn’t, and I’m rather self conscious about making noise in the bathroom.
I have an option for you.
Sit down.
I’m well aware it’s an option. But it’s not my preference.
Fair enough. There are good arguments for it, mainly about the mess that’s made from not sitting down.
Even if you have perfect aim, and a highly focused stream, splashback is a serious factor.
There’s more, but that’s a big one.
Far be it for me to tell you what to do, or what to like. Have a good day sir.
Even if you have perfect aim, and a highly focused stream, splashback is a serious factor.
Yeah. I’m also aware of that, and I’m not thrilled about it. But ultimately a urinal, with a bit of focus/attention works just fine for keeping splashback to a minimum.
No matter what you do, you’re gonna have more bacteria on you leaving a bathroom than when you came in. So at the end of the day, if you try to deal with it by washing your hands and minimize it where feasable, personal preferences are fine.
Have a good day.
The reason urinals aren’t in homes is because enough women hate them that it affects the home a value.
No, the reason is because no one even thinks about urinals. Many people actually prefer the privacy of a bathroom stall.
I’m not sure how to feel now since three of my friends grew up in houses with urinals. Those were the upper middle class kids in suburban Bavaria.
I’ve never seen one in Portugal. From low to upper class, no one has them at home.
I’d like to install a flushless urinal in my home one day. That and a Japanese bidet.
I usually choose toilet instead of urinal
yep this is the way
…and precisely what conservatives are trying to get a ban on
I’m sure that adopting this design would get cries from the fragile men about their precious urinals. Honestly, fuck them. The toilet does the job, you animal.
They started putting in gender neutral bathrooms where I work. They also put in a few urinals, behind closed doors, just like the rest of the toilets. It’s not even an issue (unless you like checking out other dudes’ junk with the current setup).
Reactionaries are entirely silly in world view and dangerous in action.
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Oh, I have made several comments suggesting the implementation of single occupant bathrooms in places like schools, and been downvoted into oblivion. Now suddenly, a post like this one sounds like a good idea to everyone on Lemmy?!?
weird lol im sorry!?
this post definitely popped off more than i expected. 1.2k votes for what i thought was just a fluff shitpost is crazy lol.
It’s a good point to make in a post! I agree with it. I guess to be fair, my previous comments had included the idea of implementing outhouses in schools, and some people replied that they would just not use the bathroom at all, if that were the case. Sigh…oh well. You can’t please everyone, I guess.
I have a double decker outhouse at my vacation property.
They know that. They are used to breaking in on their kids and spouses in vulnerable positions in the gender neutral bathrooms in their homes. They are used to “accidentally” walking in on their neighbor’s kids who are visiting.
Why do you think they are scared of that kind of bathroom in public?
Gender Neutral bathroom supporters when you ask who they would rather go camping with
I must’ve missed the part where digging holes to poop in nature is now gender specific.
I am referencing the bear dilemma which uses the same argument that people who are against gender neutral bathrooms use
I know it is a meme, but males are well known for their rape habits, and a bathroom seems like the perfect place for that… So yeha, keep those divided please. Still, allow trans people to go wherever they feel comfortable. The percentage of trans people is too low to be a concern.
Genuine question: public toilets aren’t typically locked. Does the fact one of the doors has a picture of a woman on it stop a determined rapist?
Even if we didn’t achieve fairness for trans people just yet, it’d be so fun if we took this logical determination of “Even if criminals break laws anyway, they can put friction on the act itself and help them be caught earlier” and push it back to the conservative topic of gun control; where they have claimed exactly the opposite.
It’s still bullshit on bathroom control because the two acts would be less than a minute apart with no likely witnesses. There’s far more demonstrable harm in gender exclusion in bathrooms.
Genuine question. In India train wagons are divided by gender. What prevents a man from going in there?
Is that division pointless? Why don’t you ask females how they feel about that division.
The answer in both cases is ‘cultural norms and expectations’. Something that I don’t think rapists would give much of a shit about. If a man is willing to break laws to assault someone, a cultural norm would seem to be pretty low on their list of concerns.
Over here in the UK, during the noughties gender neutral bathrooms were popping up in offices everywhere. They were seen as a cool thing that good employers did. It wasn’t anything to do with non-cis people demanding it, it just happened organically. It was a fairly brief trend and died out after the financial crash as costs were cut but people of all genders thought they were fine. It seemed a rare moment of sanity to me. We all piss and shit the same way so a loo has always seemed (to me) a very weird place to be designated as a woman only space, or a man only space come to that.
According to the latest census data the trans population of the UK is about 0.5% of the 16+ population with 0.1% identifying as trans men and 0.1% identifying as trans women. Thats about 45,000 people in each group, across the whole of the UK.
The UK has lost its collective shit when it’s making decisions that effectively punish trans people based on such an incredibly low number of people, especially when there’s literally zero indication that trans women are potential rapists or are in anyway going to negatively affect women’s rights. More than half the country are cis-women/girls. How on Earth does anyone imagine 45,000 people are a threat to to 30million+? The trans women I know just want to live their lives without being made to feel like shit.
I mean, sure, in an office that would be fine. Just the professional context would prevent people from getting caught by coworkers. Plus, people know each other… Like, if Carl rapes Sharon from accounting, Sharon will likely say something about it… It’s the same as in the family. People have no problems sharing the same bathroom for obvious reasons. But bathrooms in public places are different.
In fairness, it’s not a picture of the woman, it’s the essential restriction for men to be there multiplied by the chance that, at any time, there could be multiple women there to witness you entering the place and protecting others/describing you to the police.
I myself all for gender neutral, but the credit has to be given.
Rapists rape. Men don’t.
Most rapists are men. That was my point. This is a fact in case you want to get angry at facts.
True, but saying that men has rape tendencies is extremely untrue. It’s not like the overwhelming amount of men has a constant feeling that tells them to rape someone. Rapists are just bad people with the wrong combination of hormones, strength, size and madness that makes them rapists.
Just stop generalizing and instead call rapists for when they really are, bad people. Use whatever words you want to express that, but please refrain from using generalizing language.
Just some examples of “bad people” words are: idiot, asshole, cunt, dick, mad, crazy or you know rapists.
And btw, the vast majority (90%) of rapes commited against women are perpetrated by someone the victim knows. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1524838020977146
Shared public toilets could very well be safer because of the increased foot traffic. And yes the USA should really make better public toilets.
Here most stalls aren’t stalls they are most often completely separated into small rooms (with or without a sink depending on layout) with no way to look over or under a door or wall. Just do that and your hypothetical problem is solved
Yeha, agreed, I wasn’t trying to imply that most men do this, I was trying to say that this is mostly done by men.
So it is a sensitive matter for women, because when it comes to comparing the numbers, they are mostly victims.
I wouldn’t mix them just to find out that rapes did increase because of it. I feel there’s an unnecessary risk in that.
I get the feeling that if a man wanted to rape a woman a dedicated women’s bathroom would be a better target.
In gender neutral bathrooms there might be another man in there instead of a woman, or a woman and a man. Also straight couples and mixed gender friends groups can go into gender neutral bathrooms together. I would say this is very likely to decrease the risk of rape crimes happening. Safety in numbers.Personally there’s been times while traveling that I wished my husband and I didn’t have to separate to take bathroom breaks cuz we were at some sketchy, secluded rest stop off the highway. I would’ve felt safer with a gender neutral restroom in those instances.
Yeha, I think having a third gender neutral bathroom would be nice. But don’t remove the sense of security some women get from women-only bathrooms.
I think most people feel comfortable with the division. I wouldn’t mind going into the gender neutral to pee, but if I had to take a shit, I wouldn’t want to do that next to women.
I’m definitely in favor of adding a third bathroom. I didnt mean to sound like I was advocating for replacing the standard gendered bathrooms that already exist.
I just find the arguments against public gender neutral bathrooms are often made in bad faith, but at the same time I try to be mindful that if someone experienced trauma that might be fueling how strongly they feel about the topic. Which is why I wanted to point out how gender neutral bathrooms as an option can offer safety too.
No, I’m just trying to make everyone feel safe. I know some women wouldn’t feel safe in such a vulnerable space with men moving around.
The problem arises around trans people that are not perfectly “passing”.
One can be a trans woman and look too male/gender neutral, and how should we treat that? We can’t run a gender check on everyone who enters.
I wouldn’t mind a gender neutral bathroom as long as the other alternatives are still available. That’s fair.
That already takes three types of bathrooms (which is often complicated to create, let alone rebuild), potentially outs person visiting it as gender-nonconforming, and still contains in it a restriction to use bathrooms of their gender for trans people.
In my opinion, the best option is to just have cabins that have toilet, tap, and everything you may need. The corridor between cabins can be monitored, nothing special happens in there.
This protects everyone, allows everyone to have maximum comfort, doesn’t introduce a problematic gendered restriction and just works.
The only downsides are a slightly lower capacity and more complex plumbing.
In the 3 bathroom scenario, I wouldn’t restrict trans people to the neutral bathroom. Everyone can go to the neutral gender bathroom, or they can go to one that matches their gender identity.
Personally, I’d go to the neutral to pee and to male only to the a shit.
So the gender neutral bathroom is useless, then?
What percentage of males do you believe rape people?
Enough to be considered a problem.
So in 2022 the UK, my home, had 33m males. The same year there were 70,000 rapes.
Let’s assume these are all against women and each one committed by a different male. That means there were 70,000 rapists out of 33m people which is a percentage of males that raped people of 0.2121212121%.
Now sure we should get this to zero, but it makes your outlandish comments null and void.
I honestly don’t understand your logic. I never said all males are rapists or that it was a high percentage.
I literally said whatever percentage it is, it is enough to be a problem. 70k lives ruined in a year seems like a problem to me.
How many ruined lives for this to be a concern to you?
The point is that changing this might increase the number of rapes. Marginally? Maybe, but why take that unnecessary risk? What’s the point?
I know it is a meme, but males are well known for their rape habits, and a bathroom seems like the perfect place for that…
This not you?
Males are well know for their rape habits? WTF.
To copy another reply. Rapists are known for their rape habits and females can be rapists too.
I honestly don’t understand your logic. If someone is willing to rape someone, do you think they wouldn’t enter a female only bathroom? Do you think it’s just opportunistic men that rape people. Like huh there a women in my bathroom now I can rape her.
If I don’t reply this evening, i would love to continue this discussion it’s just getting close to bedtime but I will continue talking this out if you want.
Yes rapists are opportunistic. What I meant to say is that males are known for being the main cause of rape, maybe the wording wasn’t right because I’m not a native English speaker and I’m doing my best at communicating here. It’s obvious that most males aren’t rapists.
I absolutely believe it was the wording, which in hindsight is understandable if you’re not a native English speaker.
For what’s its worth your English is exceptional aside from the confusion here.
Bless ❤️
You know there are other people in a public bathroom, right? How often do you think rape occurs in a unisex bathroom, of all places?
Do you think women aren’t getting raped in their own women-only restroom already? Even women in India and Japan get groped by men in their women only train carriage. The point is that mixing them is just going to increase the number of victims.
I guess I don’t live in a place where that happens frequently. Let me turn this around for a moment and ask you the same question you asked earlier:
How many ruined lives for this to be a concern to you?
This reminds me of how females are known for their false rape accusations. Maybe men are safer this way too!
Yes.
