Hi,
jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy, some user posted this thread 16 days ago : https://jlai.lu/post/11504685, and a flamewar ensued between hexbear and the french, e.g. between happybadger and their administrator here.
Since they didn’t really have any reason to defederate initially, they’re now adamant that they should defederate only because of this discussion, since it proved that every Hexbear&Lemmygrad user is agressive(, as if jlai.lu users weren’t agressive in this discussion as well).
I still find hard to believe that they could defederate on such weak basis, and it does feel like a convenient excuse, but that’s what they’re saying, ask them for confirmation if you don’t believe it either.
They also used a list of post found on /c/MeanwhileOnGrad@sh.itjust.works as if it was representative, but it hardly counts as an argument, what a stupid situation…
They’ve now pinned this post for 12 days, and the defederation with both Hexbear and Lemmygrad seems unavoidable.
I’ve known this for more than a week but didn’t care that much, yet when talking with them, and especially @Camus here, they/he said that they/he would like to talk to you. @Camus is very patient/nice, and you can look at his number of comments/posts to gauge his influence, probably their most active user(, kind of a french ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆).
Well, to be more precise, he informally asked for some excuses from Hexbear, but my post here didn’t reach them, perhaps because of “r*tard” in my username(, r*tardataire designate someone who’s late in french).
However, more than excuses in the name of others, you only have to show him that we’re not aggressive(, if you have some time, it won’t change much in the end), something very easy/natural to prove for >90% of Hexbear users(, and perhaps >70-80% of Lemmygrad 🙂, it does feel a bit more bitter/serious here, not a criticism).
They have some communities that aren’t that far apart from what could be found on Lemmygrad or Hexbear b.t.w., so it can’t really be said that they’d reject us solely based on terrorism apologia, supporting Stalin, etc.(, even if their “leftist” admin is against socialist countries because our capitalists said that they’re authoritarian).
Staying federated with a french instance would be useless for 99% of Hexbear and Lemmygrad, so if you intervene it’d mostly be on the behalf of current/future french users(, it can be nice sometimes to speak your native language without using an alt account), and perhaps also for Lemmygrad and Hexbear’s reputation on jlai.lu.
If you’re french, and/or simply nice, and want a chat with them, feel free to do so directly under the post or with @Camus.
(Kinda worth mentionning in passing that, currently, their top two posts of all time sorted by the most comments are the ones cited above about this defederation)
Also, keep in mind that this defederation is unavoidable though, if it doesn’t happen now it’ll be next year or the year after. As you know, reddit banned ChapoTrapHouse, GenZedong, etc., and we were quickly banned from lemmy.world and others, so we’ll one day be banned from other “centrist” instances such as the french one. Just like we’d also be banned/censored by our governement if our numbers grow enough to disturb/‘be a threat’.
Furthermore, Hexbear took action, and decided to defederate first without even trying to discuss more calmly. So don’t waste too much of your time either(, but please don’t go there unless you intent to speak calmly).
Thanks for reading :) !
that’s the most right wing argument I saw lmao, my hatred towards the fr*nch liberals isn’t xenophobic, y’all racialist punks deserve it, last thing I want is a community of racist chauvinists who’ll justify colonialism and genocide.
Wanting to defederate because of a nationality.
Calling an entire people racialist punks.
Being called out out and defending as “that’s a right wing argument”
Calling a community which is against imperialism, nationalism, and racism : “racist chauvinists who’ll justify colonialism and genocide”
Are you sure you’re all right? I understood this to be a leftist space, are you even in the right community ?
You’re forgetting the ‘liberal’ of ‘fr*nch liberals’.
Liberal was added afterwards.
The comment has not been edited.
I leant the liberal was added to the discussion once I started pointing out the xenophobic status of the French thing.
I don’t know about that. To admit to being french is to admit to being liberal at best. The two can’t be separated. Same as any imperialist nationality. If liberal was added to later comments, it’s because clarification was clearly needed because readers weren’t understanding what it means to be French and what it means to criticise the abstract ‘French’.
I wouldn’t generally want to be associated with an imperialist regime. Nationality is not ethnicity or race. It’s an ideological choice. For Anglo-European nations, it’s a damning choice. It’s a claim that someone is in this group, not that one. Claiming and defending being ‘French’ perpetuates what Fanon called the compartments of the colonial world.
Those who take offence at a rejection of ‘French’, ‘German’, ‘British’, ‘Australian’, etc, need to ask themselves what it is they are claiming allegiance to. Once you’ve decolonised and abolished the imperialism of imperialist nations, what remains? The witty ‘defederate’ is like the phrase, ‘French? Not even once’. It’s not a general rejection of the people. It’s a rejection of what France stands for.
Born in a country = be liberal at best.
Would the rest of your post be different I would classify this as a top racism.
Which is totally the opposite of what happened. Someone calls out an instance for being French and I just pointed that out as being xenophobic. Now your whole argumentations would tend to prove that I was correct in the first place and that judging people for being born somewhere is being xenophobic.
Those who confuse the rejection of a country with the rejection of the people living in that country need to ask themselves what it is they are claiming allegiance to.
Are you pro-France, do you support the actions of our government ?
If not, why argue on the principle that users here were “racist” or xenophobic for hating a pro-french instance ? Jlai.lu isn’t anti-imperialist nor anti-french, and i doubt that finding a few criticisms(, and even fewer support for the countries we’re defending here,) would change that fact.
They’re assuming the ideology of people living in France, and of your instance, rightfully so i.m.o., not saying that there’s a problem with french “genes” or w/e
Congratulations for completely missing and proving the point.
Cool, now notice the algerian flag next to her username.
You’re the first to say that « fascists are currently 1/3 to 1/2 of voters in France », but “racialist punks” is too much ?
France is opposing every country that we’re supporting on Lemmygrad and Hexbear, and your community is not anti-France, so you’re not against imperialism and most of you clearly aren’t against nationalism.
If you’re saying that you’re not what she denounces, then aren’t we on the same side ? Kinda hard to prove it for the community, but it’s possible to do it for you, and if you really have the same values then there’s no need to fight then.
Aren’t you ashamed of the françafrique, of our many wars, of our neocolonialism, of our decolonial wars, of our centuries of genocide, of the lamentable state of our propaganda, etc. ?
She’s not “racist”, since she doesn’t hate me for being french(, even if it’s not a quality), but she hates the ideology of our country, as i do, and even more we hate the actions of our government, as you’ll claim to do as well. And it’s not because we hate France but because we love humanity/‘other countries’. Try to argue on this basis in our medias it’ll be impossible.
On my app, I don’t see the flag. But i don’t give a shit about flags in the first place. Mixing in an agressive manner people, countries and Lemmy communities is plain stupid. And flag wavers deserve the cold shoulder in my book, whatever flags they wave.
As for the rest of your diatribe, I don’t know of a single country that can be proud of its past. Countries are shit. And mixing nations / people / countries is a shit xenophobic attitude.
Yeah cool. Someone states a French speaking community should be defederated on the basis of being French, starts insulting the people but they’re not xenophobic, they have a French friend. That line of argumentation is the worst you could do.
Correction : Someone states a French speaking community should be defederated on the basis of being pro-French
If you really hate the current actions of France then we have the same “values”/beliefs/ideology
An example : Most people here would have probably appreciated some of the warnings emitted from our president towards Israel(, even if, let’s be honest we’re still far from it), that’s only an example, they’re against our actions and what we’re ending up representing.
“It’s a rare french win” isn’t heard very often around here.
This is not what was posted or claimed.
Define the actions of France. Is that of the French government? Is that of the French people? If it is of the French people considering there is basically a third econoLibs, a third racist and a third normal people in France at the moment, which third are you referring to? When considering the neoliberals, are you splitting the ones who are really neoliberals and the ones who just had neoliberal propaganda dumped onto them?
I personally despise what the French government is up to, the country’s current constitution and its authoritarian uses. But French people / France is also Solidaires/SUD, bars like le saint sauveur in Paris (historic antifa bar)… People are not a stable mix, and you can take the most hideous imperialistic regime and still find decent people in the country. Rejection of people or communities based on prejudice and labelling is scaringly close to racism.
That’s how i’m understanding it since i signed up here on Lemmygrad, and not only for the fr*nch, but for amerikkans and every westerner as well.
Many people here are american and are rightfully criticizing our imperialism, it’s not xenophobism towards themselves.
As for the rest of your (pertinent )answer i have a simple question that may help me in understanding your position(, or you to understand mine) : If Mélenchon, Poutou, Arthaud, …, come into power and somehow miraculously manages to change the course of France(, one could dream). Wouldn’t Lemmygrad users say that France is awesome now ? Or would they need to say that “some french people are awesome” ?
You may be right to want to put some nuances in this, but it’s an understandable shortcut, you define France by its government, medias, and the propaganda believed by the overwhelming majority of its population, seems like a fair shortcut, and if you’re a french anti-imperialist, then be welcomed here, but you’re an exception in France(, and knows it).
Yes and no. You don’t define a Lemmy community or a group of people like that. You may at best define a country, but that wasn’t what I pointed out, nor is it what was stated.
No. That’s the whole point. Because as soon as that line of thought is cautioned, you only need a drop of social or economic domination to create a racist trend.
Then is it wrong to say that nazi Germany was bad ? We should say that “some germans were bad” ?
Once again you’re certainly right to nuance, but could understand why people use shortcuts, and you probably used them as well(, i did).
I know that not all iranians or chinese or russians are awesome, but i do love their countries, because of their government’s actions, and regularly claim that Iran, Russia, China, the Alliance of Sahel States, and many more countries/federations, are awesome
(i’d undeniably prefer if the Alliance of Sahel States lived in peace alongside islamists though, nothing’s easy, and i do recognize on the other side that it’s happening on the fringes of the historic territory of islamism, and that we should leave some room for africans to (re)create their own uniqueness that goes beyond any other ideology, ‘one day’/soon perhaps, for now they’re still choosing between “liberalism”, socialism, and islamism, i don’t see their fourth way but it can only be temporary if they continue to ‘make room’&search for it)
Still a good point/warning though(, even if it’s more for intra-national groups) :
Yet if you’re anti-imperialist then you’re anti-France(≃anti-french), just like americans here are anti-amerikka(≃anti-americans), a shortcut to say that you’re against our imperialist actions and propaganda.
That’s why historically we’re called anti-patriotic, while we’re simply patriotic towards another France than the current one(, and real patriots are internationalists anyway i.m.h.o.).
You don’t get to decide if other people attach importance to flags. That’s very authoritarian of you.
You offer no apology for the misunderstanding or compassion, instead deciding to dig your hole further thinking that because you reject flags that must make you untouchable. It would be a masterful reversal if you were in any other community, unfortunately, we know what we’re talking about here. You try to reflect the accusation onto the Algerian user saying that you think they’re wrong for attaching importance to the massacres your country committed against her people, thereby absolving your own selfish self of any wrongdoing and allowing you to further browbeat her.
You poor thing! That’s such a terrible thing compared to the dozens of Algerians who were drowned in the Seine in 1960 😥
Peu importe, mais juste pour info complémentaire, je voulais te dire qu’il avait écrit cela après que nous ayons parlé ensemble : https://jlai.lu/comment/10727043
Et je voulais aussi te dire que même si tu n’avais pas voulu débattre plus longtemps avec anansi(, clairement une opinion anti-“autoritaire” fréquente chez nous n’est-ce pas ? Il nous accuse de double standard alors que même en ne commençant qu’en 1945 les deux accusations ne sont pas comparables, enfin, il dira qu’il s’oppose aux deux, je trouve ça malhonnête mais cela aurait pu être l’occasion de prendre le temps de “convertir” quelqu’un, même si je comprends que tu n’ai pas que ça à faire tkt…)
Je dis pas ça dans l’intention de te “flatter”, mais je trouve que ce que tu dis(, genre ici ou là,) sur l’ironie de personnes qui ne nous tolèrent pas sur la base de notre supposé autoritarisme, est super pertinent et totalement aligné sur ce que je critique moi aussi de mon côté. On ne veut pas défédérer de lemmy.world ou d’autres parce qu’ils se trompent dans leur vision du monde, et que leurs opinions nous choque ou que nous les craignons, c’est e.lles.ux qui craignent notre agitprop. Enfin bon/bref, c’est con parce que la défédération va aussi affecter leur feed, tant pis 🤷…
Tant mieux si je leur fait peur ! Je ne vais pas sur les autres instances poser mes couilles sur la table et me plaindre à PHAROS quand on me les tape avec un marteau. De un je vais rarement sur les autres instances, et si j’y vais je respecte que je ne suis pas “chez moi”. Je renvoie ce qu’on me donne et j’ai toujours été clair là-dessus, et les hypocrites ne méritent pas ma patience parce que c’est “civil”.
En gros le “problème” pour lemmygrad c’est juste que qq personnes de jlailu sont venues sur notre sujet qui a été posté dans Comradeship pour discuter d’une possible déféderation de leur part. Notre responsabilité s’arrête à ce sujet, ce n’est pas à nous d’aller les chouchouter pour qu’ils évitent de prendre une décision et bien qu’ils parlent de “plusieurs” personnes de lemmygrad qui sont venu envenimer leur sujet, de un je n’y étais pas (donc anansi n’avait aucune raison de prendre ce ton avec moi) et de deux je n’ai vu que deux commentaires provenant de lemmygrad. Ils parlent des utilisateurs de lemmygrad qui sont venus mais j’ai encore jamais vu de qui ils parlaient, aucune preuve n’a été avancée.
Tout le reste ne nous concerne pas en tant qu’instance, c’est-à-dire ce qui se dit dans leur topic, ce qu’ils pensent d’hexbear, et même ce que qq utilisateurs de lemmygrad ont pu venir dire dans leur sujet. Quand on reçoit des gens d’autres instances qui déblatèrent des âneries on les banni juste et fini, on ne va pas dire à leur instance de s’occuper de ces signalements parce que notre manière de fonctionner est de s’occuper uniquement de ce qui se passe sur notre instance, on est conscients que ce n’est pas aux admins d’autres instances de faire la police pour tout lemmy.
Défédérer ne fait que les enfermer un peu plus, et comme c’est leur décision on ne “peut” pas leur faire changer. Des utilisateurs peuvent essayer de raisonner avec eux s’ils le souhaitent (encore une fois s’ils vont sur jlailu pour participer dans leur sujet ce n’est pas notre problème en tant qu’administration, tout comme ce ne serait pas le problème de jlailu si leurs utilisateurs venaient participer ici), mais ce n’est pas une politique administrative de le faire car c’est leur décision qui n’engage qu’eux et que finalement ils prennent eux. J’entends par là qu’on peut essayer de leur faire changer d’avis, mais on ne peut littéralement pas décider pour eux.
De manière plus globale, je pense que vouloir défédérer parce que c’est “difficile” de vivre avec une autre instance montre, surtout dans les arguments qu’ils ont avancé pour lemmygrad (encore une fois je ne peux rien dire pour hexbear car ce n’est pas mon instance), montre juste que tu as peur de ne pouvoir leur faire face argumentativement. Lemmy world était bien plus actif que nous et on a pas défédéré, pourquoi est-ce qu’on l’aurait fait ? On a vu leurs arguments des centaines de fois, à chaque fois qu’ils venaient dire quelque chose tu avais systématiquement 3 commentaires dessous pour débattre avec eux. Même nos utilisateurs ne signalaient pas les commentaires de lemmy world (y.c. les trolls), tellement ils voyaient ça comme du bruit de fond.
Lemmy world et toutes les autres instances qui ont défédéré de lemmygrad peuvent annuler leur décision quand elles le veulent car on est toujours fédérés avec de notre côté. Leur décision leur appartient entièrement et c’est pour ça que je trouve être une perte de temps, pour dire ainsi, d’essayer de leur faire changer d’avis – mais encore une fois si d’autres utilisateurs veulent participer à cette discussion ils peuvent bien entendu le faire, ce n’est que mon avis.
Ah ce truc de PHAROS ça m’a tué de rire !
C’est tellement cliché, les français ont vraiment ça dans le sang d’êtres des collabos.
boho fucking crying ass cracker frenchie punk
No, you’re it! 🤣
the other user of you here called us monkeys who shit in their hands, and called us children, I don’t need to spell anything out crakkker
Your point being? Trying to prove them right with your attitude.?
you realise how racist it looks to tell me (an African) that my attitude proves that I’m a monkey? you are fascist liberals, as left as Degaulle.