Alt account of @Cube6392@beehaw.org for looking at stuff Beehaw defederated
https://keyoxide.org/BAF9ACFBBA5B9A51A680D77CEF152DAE039C5CF5
easy. the german nazis themselves were zionists. they cooperated with the jewish-zionist movement to deport german Jews to “israel.” the thing to understand:
ponytail i take absolutely zero issue with. like i said, the issue i took with your comment was personal to me to the extent i wouldn’t have said anything unless someone mentioned they’re not called pigtails.
i take a great deal more offense to what israel does as a human than to what you said as i said in a comment further down about how zionism is just one expression amongst many of jewish identity, and that it has failed multiple times before.
i do not criticize those who criticize israel for criticizing israel. to criticize israel and israelis is right and good. they are on the wrong side of history and they will be remembered as poorly as any other authoritarian regime ever has.
especially in a socialist space we have to acknowledge the harm israel performs at large globally in order to enable their genocide. their digital panopticon was funded by bosses and bankers who wanted to spy on their employees at work to boost productivity. the same technology that tells your boss when you haven’t moved your mouse in 15 minutes is the same technology the IOF uses to monitor and disrupt popular front actions.
huh. okay. sounds like the european-liberal position is less violent and expansionistic than i was thinking and more just… passively tolerant of paleoconservatism and fascism than what i was using as my mental model. goes to show the value of knowing your role and staying in your lane since all politics are ultimately local first.
i’ll think about if i should edit my comment since it sounds like i’ve used evronationalism not quite right since i was thinking more about nationalist/expansionist/imperialist movements that have sought to unify the continent through violent subjugation. as it stands i think the gist of what i’m saying about historic cycles of violence still holds, but i’ve unintentionally muddied the waters of something that isn’t quite what i was thinking of. and i ABSOLUTELY don’t want to muddy the waters between pan-europeanism and the form eurocentric nationalism i’m trying to describe, which is super common in pseudointellectual discourse, to the extent that the two are even conflated in some encyclopedias and political science dictionaries despite representing diametrically opposing viewpoints on what the region of Europe even is.
perhaps this is why i’m struggling to have a term on hand. it’s the desire of the definers we conflate them rather than see them as different
this is one of the examples of how electoralism can only ever give us some breathing room, but never our full liberation. even a “good” politician is still a politician. they may have entered government to reshape government, but eventually working in government will reshape them.
i encourage others to work to get the best possible politicians into positions of power, but to also work on coagulating people power in order to topple those same positions of power. here are some things you can do:
like i said. i don’t presume most who say it say it out of hate or know that there’s a painful history associated with the term so i let it go. but since someone provided the proper term i figured i’d mention it
okay. so it would denote like… a sense of patriotistic fervor directed toward EU with a sense of superiority that the EU should be the dominant top down force in the world rather than a belief that there should be sense of solidarity and cooperation amongst the workers on the European continent?
sounds roughly analagous to the difference between Americanism and Pan-Americanism if i’m understanding correctly?
Israel is merely the genocidal nation state we were discussing. my understanding of the thread starter’s comment and my own is that we cannot hope to address these problems if we don’t acknowledge how they work. the ownership class has used effectively the same tricks since the domestication of grass ~16,000 years ago. we have to see and discuss those tricks to be able to break the cycles of torture enacted against the people
yes. the strong union protections in California is why Tesla opened all their manufacturing in California and hasn’t busted any attempts to unionize those factories. so glad you know better the history of labor in california than the workers there fighting for their rights
the only real narrative that matters is the consensus you and your neighborhood reach. all politics are local first
Did Europe colonialise the rest of the world because of intergenerational trauma?
Yes. The current european powers de-indigenized and then marginalized groups across Europe, forcefully integrated those people into themselves, and then when they ran out of people to colonize on European land, they expanded outward. Russia expanded into Northern Asia, Spain and Portugal split the world in half. The Dutch initiated the rape of Africa, and Great Britain then conquered all of that. But it was still initialized by a sequence of colonial expansions in the region by the first autocrats. Some even bore the names of the first to do it in their region, such as the Russian monarch being “Czar” after Caesar or the German autocrat being Kaiser after Caesar. If you want to trace back as far as we can, it seems like this process all started in the bronze age with the authoritarian autocracies of the temple societies. This is around the same time, as well, that other authoritarian bronze age powers were being formed in other parts of the world like the Qin dynasty in China and the Mississippi Mound People of North America. Many of the precolonial cultures the Europeans wiped out like the Taino, Tanui, and Hawai’ians considered themselves to be post-colonial on first re-contact with the Europeans.
What about Russia invading Ukraine?
I encourage you to look into the history of the Kievan Rus’. They sound an awful lot like the origin story of Rome. Not the fun origin story about Romulus and Remus sucking on wolf mommy milkers. But instead the story of a group of men shunned from the other local tribes for being violent problem weirdos who then came back, conducted raids on their former neighbors, and then created a dynastic war culture where the working people experienced brutal, short, horrible lives. It is intergenerational trauma all the way down
Who traumatised the Nazis?
WWI mostly. But prior to WWI you also have the first wave of nationalism in which Nationalism was thought to be an organizing force for socialist good. But then if you divide Europe circa 1848 into borders based on national identity you run into a problem real fast. Let’s just focus on Russia and Ukraine from the prior question. Where do you draw the border between these two Ruthenian people? And is the dialect of Russian spoken in Rostov-on-Don more Ukrainian or more Russian? How do you deal with that in the late 1800s the Russian Empire moved self identifying russians into Donetsk to run mining operations? And how do you deal with that there’s a thriving community of Ukrainians north of the Korean penninsula? If you answer all of these questions with borders, you will constantly run into problems of drawing a line through a gradient where someone is unhappy to suddenly be Ukrainian living in Russia or Russian living in Ukraine.
But for Germany specifically you have to confront that the Rhineland is situated just right in the middle of everything in Europe. The two main super powers in Continental Europe are consistently Russia or Polish-Lithuania (depending on the century) in the east and Spain or France (depending on the century) in the west. And eventually because of the traumatizing legacy of Rome, someone’s going to get it into their heads that instead of building toward a Pan-European sense of solidarity and cooperation, it would be easier and more convenient for their own selfish needs to install a sense of Evronationalism as I’ve seen @alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com call it (she’ll need to correct me if I’m using the term wrong, I’m never as well versed on -nationalist movements as I am on pan- movements) with their own national identity being the ideal form of that evronationalism. So they invade every country in between them and the other side of the continent. Germany, being situated right in the middle of that, spent a great many centuries getting good at combat (same with Poland) but without a state apparatus at its head (same with Lithuania). Then in 1848 a german noble with a dumb moustache (Bismarke) got it in his head that Prussia was perfectly positioned to be the master of Europe and that this Kaiser he groomed could stand atop all the other nations if instead of conquering everything fast slowly built up both soft and hard power. It didn’t work because autocracies never work because eventually all of the power is hoarded into the hands of someone really fucking stupid and they mess everything up by being really fucking stupid
Do the United States fund the genocide because of their own trauma?
“No one hates the Irish more than an Irishman with power”
Yes, quite frankly. Europe sent all of its most violent and unlikeable weirdos to another continent in hopes they’d go away and leave them alone. It’s the same thing that led to the foundation of Rome, it’s the same thing that led to the Kieven Rus’, and it’s the same thing that happened again. You can’t re-educated certain people by telling them you don’t like hanging out with them. You can’t just send them somewhere to be someone else’s problem. They’re too dangerous to be left alive. I’m sorry, but that’s just how it is sometimes. The challenge is how do you determine who determines this? I don’t have a good answer to that question. I’m just a big dumb idiot who likes watching baseball sometimes who thinks the world we live in is filled with injustice and bottomless greed. I know how to make things work in the group settings I find myself in but how to as a single group identify a problem person, and eject them from your group without them going and finding a new group to create problems with, I have no idea.
Tell me what’s so special about Israel.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You’re just witnessing what 16,000 of “civilization” has been. From the very moment sedentary lifestyle took hold it has been this. To put on my Marxist analysis hat for just a moment, the only thing that has ever changed in that time frame has been that every single time an economy shifts from one production technology to another (usually in a time frame of about every 80 years) the workers get a few more rights in the aftermath of the violent revolution that happens when everyone realizes that the rich man’s horded wealth is worthless if everyone decides they can beat him up. To take off my Marxist hat and put on my anarchist hat, there are some gaps in the historical periods when this pattern of 60 years of decay, followed by everything exploding, and then 20 years of creative fervor doesn’t happen for a while. You have the first “dark age” after the bronze age collapse, which lasted for about 300 years and you have the “dark ages” when the roman empire collapsed and Europe existed like some sort of Dark Souls setting in the monuments of a ruined empire. Most significantly though, you have the nomadic people who came from the Mississippi Mound Culture who maintained their post-colonial anti-hierarchical culture for nearly 800 years before Europeans showed up and broke everything. No I’m not saying they were perfect, they has skirmishes and squabbles. But nothing to the degree of the 7 years war that Europe unleashed upon them on first contact, or the world wars that would follow. I think we look at these dark ages all wrong. Within those time periods people found ways to thrive and survive until some asshole like Charlemagne or Qin the Conqueror showed up. We need to study these time periods not as being a time when humanity forgot how to live and how to be, but instead of windows that the oligarchic class doesn’t want us to see through. If we take that approach, we find that how we sustain a post-hierarchical society is through the arts, and by integrating science, technology, and combat training into the arts. There’s so much more to history than just what’s written down in text books. Time and again, we find that oral records map history as accurately, or sometimes more accurately than the written record does. Vernacular cultures are not lesser to civilizations. For more about this concept, see here: https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=k0_w87J9Dj0
the time period @FlyingCircus@lemmy.world is referencing predates America existingt as an idependent entity by about 2 centuries. the original rape of Turtle Island was a collaborative effort between the Spanish, French, Dutch, and English primarily. groups from Germany, Denmark, Scotland (which wasn’t yet unified with England), and Polish-Lithuania were also involved
they’ve been called “pigtails” by outright antisemites since the late 1800s as a comentary on the curly textured hair of ashkenazi jews. just in case anyone’s curious where that term originates. i don’t assume that’s how most people in this modern time use the term, so i didn’t downvote since the other poster might have jost been thinking of the modern common girl’s hairstyle. but it still hit me REAL wrong
i exist to speak the truths of my people. that has wound up being mainly Appalachia. our truths are that every genocide is interconnected, and that all authority exists with the aim of subjugation. my family is not so unique or special. you’ll find stories like ours all over the world if you choose to look. i have a best friend whose father was decapitated by Wagner in Kiev. i have a neighbor who arrived here from a Siberian orphanage. i have a coworker who spent time on an anti-poaching task force in The Ivory Coast (sorry, i can never remember the french. Cote-de-Ivore?). the importance isn’t to give me empathy, but instead the people who are fighting for survival right now be they in Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, the Congo, Iran, Syria, or Ukraine. we are all one people and our differences are illusions. we have adapted to our environments in different ways, but wherever we are we help who we can
additionally, eurocentric world views tend to see nomadic people as less than. for the Apache, Blackfoot, Comanche, Crow, Lakota, Nez Perce, Ojibwe, Sioux, and i’m sure many others, that “empty” land didn’t look empty at all, even with their numbers reduced
i mean. you’re also not strictly speaking wrong. it is a jewish tradition to multiple times a year, all sit down at a table and have an uncle, bubbula, nanny, or teen go off on a rant about one of the times someone tried to kill all of us, and then eat food about it.
it’s just that it’s not tongue in cheek 🤣
no. part of passover is the Seder dinner which in my community was this past friday. someone is chosen to tell the story of Jewish defiance to oppression in their own language. as a non practicing Jew, my responsibility was to sit quietly and listen, and then to carry that story into the next year. this year, the emphasis was on how we are currently living in the re-emergence of the totalitarian hate we all seek to defy, and part of that is the story of the modern israel, and how it exists as an oppressor that claims itself the victim. especially because as we sat and ate, Israeli troops conducted war crimes in Lebanon.
thank you! i meant to weave that into this passover testimony and just got side tracked by how fucking long it already was. yes. doikayt is on the backfoot in the world’s understanding of judaism because of the nazis and nazi collaborators
Lemmy has a tendency to treat any analysis of how something came to be as being sympathizing with villainy. the truth is the root of the modern zionist movement is the Odessa Pogroms conducted by the Russian empire against Russian and Ukrainian jews, mainly. the predominant reason they did this is that Jews in eastern Ukraine were organizing mutual aid and community defense structures under what they called The Bund.
detour time: if you’re American, The Bund being a leftist jewish thing probably hits your ears wrong since in the United States that was a pro-german pro-nazi party whose only real political position was “we hate Jews.” German and Yiddish have many word cognates in common. German is an Italic language (infuriatingly) and Yiddish is a Slavic language. But Yiddish is a Slavic language the same way English is a Germanic language: they’re 3 languages that jumped another language in a back alley, beat it up, and then forced it to use their grammars. erasing a people’s language is part of distorting a people into who you want them to be. put a pin in that for later, but for now just know that the most recently someone worked to erase a language was in the 80s, boarding school teachers in the US forced their students to speak only in English or Esperanto. since i’m pretty sure i’m talking to mostly Europeans, i’ll briefly explain that in the US a boarding school is not an education facility for elites, it’s a torture facility where native american boys and queer young man go to have their personality erased until they exist in service of whiteness.
in Western Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, and Poland two movements arose in response to the violence against Jews by the russian empire: Zionism and Doikayt. these are ultimately not new thought patterns in Jewish thought, but the 1880s incarnations of them were born then. Zionism is the old response to the Babylonian diaspora of ~800 BCE: we need a nation of our own where we can be safe and secure and we’ll do things differently. sure, every nation state that has ever existed has become an evil and wicked thing, but ours will be different because we run things. Doikayt is the old diasporadic response to the second temple society being a fascist nightmare when for many Jews, our existence is meant to stand in defiance to any oppressor.
in places where authoritarianism was the norm, and Jews lived in fear, particularly east of the pale of civilization in Russia and Eastern Ukraine, Zionism became the “normal” jewish stance. Where Jews had more ability to exist within their communities Doikayt and Bundism became the preferred approach. what really broke things was WWI when the British empire through west asia into total chaos with the Sykes-Picot agreement. this action, as well as the chaos of the Russian civil war enabeled Zionists to begin setting up illegal kibbutzes, settlement of a specific form, in Palestine in the 1920s.
this time period is ultimately the root of the nazi party’s word “Judeo-bolshevism.” today it seems like an impossibly stupid term, but you have to but yourself back into Eastern Germany in the 1920s and 30s. You’re living in a post apocalypse. a country you were just at war with is at a civil war. you are told that within that country, Jews are undermining monarchic power structures through sabotage so they can steal a new homeland. within your own country, the jews are a mix of anarcho-communists, religious-communists, and religious-anarchists. a silly little man with a bad moustache tells you that all jews are in league and they’re in league with the bolsheviks. it almost seems believable with the media environment.
the challenge i have, is i see much of this playing out today. my great great great grandmother lived in a schtetl in Western Ukraine named Brezhnezhy. she moved to Chicago, had her hand chopped off by my great great grandfather’s KKK chapter, and then moved to North Dakota. for as twisted and mean as she became from her experiences, the one thing she always held firm on was that her place in the world was to raise strong children who defied oppressors wherever they saw them. her Jewish descendents hold this belief close to them and promote Doikayt. but still i find myself frequently alienated by people on lemmy who hold all Jews responsible for zionism, equate zionism to Judaism, or otherwise erase the majority of jewish thought to focus on hating people not for their ethics but for their ethnicity.
i asked you earlier to put a pin in that when you erase a people you erase their language to break intergenerational continuity. i want you to think about this. the modern hebrew israelis speak doesn’t sound like the hebrew that was once spoken. hebrew was a dead language around 300 CE. yiddish became the defacto jewish language for the ashkenazi people as we fled late roman/early christian persecution. the places we settled in europe were the places we found tolerance. we adopted new forms of dress and new meals. now, israel is destroying Yiddish and saying that borscht isn’t a jewish food. they want to sever the ties to the friends we made and seek to remember. they want to erase the wisdom of 1500 years of jewish life. no nation state who ever subjigated us ever demanded this much forgetting before.
Israel isn’t just anti-semitic in that semitic peoples are more that just Jews. they’re anti-jewish.
(George Washington was one of those slaveholders in a southern state)
yeah the award is specifically for american journalism. it was established to callenge the hegemony established by the robber barons who in the late 1800s were buying up all the legacy newspapers, undermining independent journalism
imagine if like… jeff bezos bought the washington post. that’s basically what was going on. and because the robber barons weilded so much political power, the award required one of those robber barons setting up the award in his will. because he certainly wasn’t gonna cede that power in life.
the only valuable journalistic outlets from that time were local newspapers run kind of secret, and Mother Jones which was at the time covering how the industrial boom in the urban north was coming at the cost of coal miners’ blood