This post is lengthy but it carries a question I have been thinking about for a long time, thank you for opening it :]
Introduction
I will present a writedown of my thoughts on the topic, you may read it if you want to discuss my perspective. I’d be equally delighted to just read some thoughts or opinions from you.
My perspective
I’m at least questioning my current identity, however I’m often troubled by the problem stated in the title.
Gender Roles/Stereotypes
I consider gender roles outdated and problematic at least. This is possibly stemming from the fact, that I’m unhappy with the one assigned to me. In case I was too ambigous: I’m thinking about constructs including but not limited to:
- Men should be strong, they may pursue technical interests.
- Women are caring and supportive, their primary interests should be of a social nature. They care about looks and feels
I think these prejudices are actively harmful to non-conforming people, since they may be perceived as socially inept or weird (consider young adults/school).
Transgender Identity
On to the Trans Identity Part. I have gained the impression that transitioned people are doing their best to fulfill the roles and stereotypes assigned to their desired gender.
Conclusion
To me, it seems like efforts towards gender equality, and therefore the abolishment of stereotypes are clashing with trans peoples desire to fit in with society.
I see both sides, they have motivation I can understand, it feels like a conflict that cannot be resolved.
Thank you for sitting and reading through this, I’d be happy to discuss anything related.
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So, there are quite a few flaws with your position.
Firstly, for some reason, you’re putting the lens on trans people, and not cis people. Cis society does far more to encourage and sustain gender norms than trans people ever will, simply because there are so many more cis people. If you are genuinely concerned about the harms of gendered roles and how they sustain gender inequality, you should be more worried about the source of those behaviours, and not trans people.
Secondly, if your concerns are about the harms of gender norms, then you should probably acknowledge that trans people are more harshly judged and punished by those norms than cis people are. Trans people have their gender denied to them if they don’t perform their gender sufficiently for society. They get misgendered, they get their rights taken away, they get denied access to bathrooms. And to top it off, trans people are also punished for performing their gender roles, and that punishment, again, often takes the form of denying trans people their identity. “If you were really a woman, you wouldn’t need to act so feminine to show it”
Thirdly, the premise that “transitioned people are doing their best to fulfill the roles and stereotypes assigned to their desired gender” is incorrect. Or rather, it’s as correct and incorrect as it is about cis people. Some trans people adhere to gender norms. Some don’t. But again, the difference is, trans people get punished more often and more strongly by those norms, whichever side of the fence they fall on. Your post here is an example of that imbalance, because you are blaming some of the biggest targets of societal inequality for that inequality, despite their complete lack of power and influence
There is no “two sides” here. Enforced gender norms hurt everyone, but they impact trans people more. The idea that there is “two sides” is an example of that. Blaming the victims for their own mistreatment
Quite an in-depth answer, more than I had hoped for.
I agree with your first point, though I feel obliged to point out that I would not have asked this question anywhere if the focus had been whether cisgender people encourage the usage of two gender stereotypes.
I think we already agree on the second point. I had hoped to bring that across with the following section:
I think these prejudices are actively harmful to non-conforming people, since they may be perceived as socially inept or weird (consider young adults/school).
My writing must’ve been to imprecise, sorry about the confusion. If you feel that I’ve misunderstood the point you made, please elaborate or try a different wording so that I may try again.
I cannot challenge your third point and will accept it on the basis that you have more experience and knowledge on the topic.
It’s always easy to clarify something after the fact (“I didn’t mean it that way”), but here I go.
It’s not my intention to vilify or blame trans people, whom you rightfully defend. I crafted this question with my mind set on the following: “If I were trans, would I be supporting gender stereotypes and/or how to avoid it”.
Not sure where you read me blaming trans people for their own mistreatment, I will probably not add clarifications to the post since it might undermine the authenticity of your response.
I would not have asked this question anywhere if the focus had been whether cisgender people encourage the usage of two gender stereotypes.
But you did ask it somewhere, and you asked it about trans people, who aren’t in a position to change it, but are unfairly burdened by it.
Surely you see how skipping over it for cis people “because it’s obvious” to talk about trans people instead, is putting the focus and blame on the wrong group, whether that is your intention or not. Trans people can’t fix it, and trans people are the most punished by it. There is no conflict, just trans people trying to live safely in a society that makes that hard.
I think these prejudices are actively harmful to non-conforming people, since they may be perceived as socially inept or weird (consider young adults/school).
That is a little confusing, because the premise of your post was about gender conforming trans people. Here, you’re talking about the impact on non gender confirming trans folk though.
The crucially important thing is that trans people are punished however they perform gender.
It’s not my intention to vilify or blame trans people, whom you rightfully defend. I crafted this question with my mind set on the following: “If I were trans, would I be supporting gender stereotypes and/or how to avoid it”.
Yeah, I know you aren’t coming from a place of ill intent.
And I know you’re coming at this from the lens of someone questioning themselves. But like so many of us, you’re struggling with things, because of a lifetime of transphobic baggage that shapes how you even think about yourself.
Here’s the thing, if you’re gender diverse, you’re gender diverse already. It doesn’t become true when you accept it, and it doesn’t stop being true when you try and push it deeper. If you’re gender diverse, you aren’t “supporting stereotypes”. In fact, if you express your identity to people in any way, society will go out of its way to punish you for diverging from its expected stereotypes.
Not sure where you read me blaming trans people for their own mistreatment
You are doing that, but I include you in the list of people you’re impacting. And it’s also something that so so so many of us do. It’s the result of growing up surrounded by transphobia. We will do anything to undermine ourselves and talk ourselves out of being trans or gender diverse. Even if you’re not gender diverse, the framework we exist in makes it really hard to work that out, because you punish yourself for even considering it, for even asking the questions.
And that’s what this is. This is you, struggling with internal conflicts as you look inwards to your own identity, trying to find reasons why you shouldn’t go further down this path, why in fact, it’s easier to just suck it up and go back to the way things were. It’s why you skipped over the impact cis folk have on this environment, and instead focused on gender diverse folk, because you’re dealing with a lifelong pressure that makes you want to bias the outcome of your self reflection so that you don’t find divergence and difficulty.
My advice to you, is to stop worrying about what your self reflection might find, and what it might mean, until after you’ve followed that path. If you’re gender diverse, you’re gender diverse already, and the important part is giving yourself permission to accept that possibility, rather than trying to focus on building barriers to the exploration. If you do find out you’re gender diverse, then you can find a way of navigating that on your own terms, in a way that brings you peace and happiness. But find that answer first :)
You are doing that, but I include you in the list of people you’re impacting. And it’s also something that so so so many of us do. It’s the result of growing up surrounded by transphobia. We will do anything to undermine ourselves and talk ourselves out of being trans or gender diverse. Even if you’re not gender diverse, the framework we exist in makes it really hard to work that out, because you punish yourself for even considering it, for even asking the questions.
In retrospect, my gender abolition was basically a cudgel I used to punish myself for my gender desires, a way to rationalize my gender as a violation of my politics and morality. And it makes a lot of sense in hindsight that the emotional need to repress my gender desires would need to find forms that didn’t feel reactionary or transphobic, but instead felt feminist and egalitarian.
If you’re gender diverse, you’re gender diverse already, and the important part is giving yourself permission to accept that possibility, rather than trying to focus on building barriers to the exploration.
This is really great advice, and ultimately similar to what I found helpful for myself.
One way of resolving the cognitive dissonance for me was to recognize that whatever moral problems I have with gender, trans people find themselves in a particularly difficult spot, and if there is anyone we are going to give a “pass” to for using gender, it should probably include trans people … at some point it became clear my need to alleviate gender dysphoria was more directly morally important in terms of how it makes me a functioning and good person in my life, and how being a functioning and healthy person impacts other people in my life, than any theoretical and political argument about how participating in gender or using gender was immoral.
For me at least I also had special rules: I wouldn’t have thought other trans women should be seen as immoral for feminizing the way I felt immoral for feminizing, for example. Recognizing I’m not special and I deserve what anyone else deserves was also important to helping me realize my rationalizations were irrational and designed to repress and punish more than they were about being a good person.
I’m gonna talk from a transfem pov.
Yes and no. Dysphoria comes in a variety of flavours. What you’re describing could most accurately be described as societal dysphoria. And my understanding is that it’s closely associated with social dysphoria. So if you need other people to see you as a woman, you will likely also feel a need to conform to societal norms for femininity.
You for sure get a lot of trans tradwives, but you also get a lot who are nothing like that. I for example grew up rurally and the traditional gender roles take a back seat to practicality in day to day life. So all the women I grew up around dressed in jeans and hoodies and did manual labour. Everyone hung out in mixed groups and we all went to the pub together. So socially I have a preference for female company and feel I have more to talk about with my girls. But I don’t feel a need to conform to gender stereotypes.
I’d like to thank you for sharing your pov.
I had read a little in the bible before, apparently not enough.
Great Thanks for the Link
I like exploring taking on roles. And taking off roles when it feels more comfortable. I play roles, but I try to avoid being defined by them.
Abolition of Gender won’t happen overnight. There are much bigger fish to fry than trans people feeling good about themselves. As long as we live in a society with gender roles those roles will have an impact on everyone. Abolishing those roles will make everyone happier, but in the meantime enjoy your gender whatever it happens to be and don’t let it make you feel bad.
Thank you for the response.
I hope I didn’t give off the impression that I’d like to fry up trans people feeling good about themselves.
I like your pragmatic view and may just choose to adopt it.
I resolved the conflict by simply inventing My own gender /hj
I think Ada already said it better than I will, but yeah there’s a few too many simplifications and short-circuits (in reasoning/logic) in what you have written. If society stopped claiming people “should” be this or that just because of some physical characteristics they were born with, the “conflict” you outline ceases to exist. Trans people (and “non-conforming” people in general) could fulfill whatever roles and stereotypes they resonate with, and still fit in just fine.
Plus, the stereotypes some of us resonate with simply do not neatly map onto society’s stereotypes of men and women. Some people who have outwardly transitioned may seem to be moulding themselves into society’s “traditional” gender norms, sure. Putting aside those who do so out of self preservation or fear of persecution, I would argue it’s just happenstance (in other words, pure luck) that who they want to be in life lines up so neatly with these existing delineations. It doesn’t conflict with the push to stop expecting and demanding people fit other people’s schemas.
I don’t know that stereotypes are necessarily harmful, not do I think that the point of equality is to get rid of them. Rather, they should have no bearing on our worth, and we should not be reducing people to the various stereotypes we know of. We are infinitely more complex and varied beings than any stereotypes that anyone has ever conceived.
Myself, I prefer to think of stereotypes as archetypes, like in storytelling. They are shortcuts that evoke certain character traits. They cannot describe the totality of a person, only facets. Thus, we should be careful to not expect people to fit “inside” them; therein lies the/a root of a lot of harm. If that is too difficult, better to do away with thinking in terms of stereotypes than demean those who don’t fit them.
I like your notion of character archetypes that support defining oneself whilst not being the primary device to it.
Hope I got that right.
I had similar struggles with accepting trans identity because in my repressed state I believed the morally necessary position was full gender abolition. I also struggled with embracing femininity, e.g. putting on makeup, and felt I was betraying women and playing into sexist norms … reading Julia Serano, particularly Whipping Girl and Sexed Up helped me better understand gender and helped me resolve these conflicts. Maybe they would help you too?
The most important part is that this post made me, once again, realize, that the perfectionist mindset gets me nowhere.
It’s about the steps and the experience along the way.
I like reading up, have noted your recommendations and will check local libraries etc. :]
sounds great!
and yeah, I definitely get the way perfectionism is used to just delay positive action or changes that feel scary
either that or I found myself living with unreasonable amounts of cognitive dissonance when I wasn’t being a good feminist e.g. when I wore mascara, etc.
