Am American, I know the phrase criss cross applesauce, but have never heard it used seriously. I’ve always said and heard, cross legged. Years ago it was called Indian style but I haven’t heard that in years.
Yeah, was Indian style as a kid in the early '90s. Little kids need some mnemonic device to literally just not fly off the face of the earth, and so that was the replacement they came up with. Cross-legged just doesn’t grab a kid’s attention like mashed apples.
OK kids, come over and sit criss cross applesauce, quiet as a mouse. Do as I say, or I’ll come to your house. That’s where I might just talk to your mother, and see if we should replace you with another.
American accents seem to prefer the Shakespearean version: “Wicked”, “Dogged” but not “Curved” for whatever reason. Maybe it has to do with the tendency for the word to be used as a verb. “Curved” is usually an adjective but sometimes a verb, while “Wicked” is nearly always an adjective.
I think it’s often to distinguish between two words that would otherwise be homophones.
There’s “wick’ed” (two syllables) as in “something wicked this way comes” and “wicked” (one syllable) as in “Grady wicked away the spilled avocaat from Jack Torrence’s jacket with a towel”.
There’s “dogg’ed” (two syllables) as in “dogged perseverance”, but also “dogged” (one syllable) as in “Javert dogged Valjean for many years”.
I don’t have one for “curved” though. I think i’ve only ever heard it as one syllable, except for maybe in cases where poetic meter requires use of an “èd”. Although, I think “curv’ed’ly” has three syllables, but I might be making that up. Typing up this comment has given me semantic satiation.
But, yeah, I think you’re right about the adjective vs verb thing. The two-syllable examples are adjectives, while the one-syllable examples are verbs. Except for curved…
Huh? Well, yes, but that’s not what’s happening, here. What you’re referencing is “that sofa is red” becoming “that sofa rizz red”. I’m not adding an “r” to “sauce” haha.
Great video! His stuff is brilliant. I’m a native speaker but every now and then one of his videos will pop up in my feed and I’ll end up learning about how I talk lol. Highly recommended for anyone interested in fascinating deep dives into speech.
Whenever there are these kinds of threads there’s always loads of people posting things like “sauce rhymes with boss not horse” or something.
This rhyming and text based approach is confusing because in different accents words might be pronounced differently than how the writer is pronouncing them and they may all rhyme or none of them may rhyme.
If you’re not familiar with phonetic spelling (most people I know aren’t) then audio clips with the differences are probably the way to go. Just typing random words isn’t a great way of comparing accents.
Per the (extremely fascinating) video, it seems that phonetic spelling from the dictionary doesn’t always capture the correct pronunciation, or mechanically what is happening with the mouth… E.g. US “blue” with the ‘w’ at the end where we release the lips when done with the o. Hm.
I hadn’t really thought much about how, mechanically, one has to reposition one’s tongue, jaw, and lips to shift between the end and beginning of words and that can lead to a glide(?) or modulation if we speak without stopping airflow between words.
I suppose we should think of pronunciation in terms of motor planning for tongue, jaw, lips, etc. to be more accurately descriptive.
I need an example pronunciation of how it doesn’t rhyme because the only way I can hear it in my head rhymes. I’ve never heard of this name for the seating method though.
I have posted an audio clip up there ↑ in this very thread!
All those examples are the same sounds to me. With how English spelling is, there are ‘au’ words I say differently (I say “because” like “b’cuzz”), but I can’t think of any that would rhyme with cross
The proper American phonetic for sauce is “saas”. The proper american phonetic for cross is “craas”.
I think you MIGHT be able to defend it for British English, which use phonetics “kros” and “haws” and “saws” for above words. But I would say “aws” and “os” phonetics are close enough to to count as rhyming by most standards, and classical poetry uses far less clear rhymes commonly.
That’s really interesting. I ran it through a british tts and it sounded closer than a lot of classic poetry rhymes… Yeah, it’s not exactly the same, but it’s similar.
Run that string through an American English TTS, and you’ll see exactly how perfect it rhymes.
If you check back on this thread, I’ve posted audio of how I say it. I think it’s ‘cross’ that’s really different - US doesn’t really have that short o sound but has an ‘aw’ instead. If I say ‘criss craws applesauce’ then the intended rhyme makes itself clear.
“Cross” is very short in British English dialects, meanwhile “sauce” is much closer to “source”, to the point that they’re almost indistinguishable. American English dialects tend to elongate the “ahh” sounds.
Sauce: I used to speak in American, but now I speak in bastardised English where I trip off the path and whipe my ass on the grass, but no one ever knows how I might pronounce those words.
Have you ever been to Bristol? The way they pronounce “half” reminds me of American accents. Not “half” like the Queen’s English, not “haff” like some places oop norff, but “haaaff” said with kind of a wide mouth. It perhaps makes sense, as Bristol was a port town that a lot of early immigrants to America started from.
That and Scottish kids. I think they watch so much YouTube these days (particularly up in the middle of nowhere) that they pick up a twang of American.
I wanted to say something about the influence of West Indian immigrants on Bristol culture, but I don’t know enough about it to be confident of not putting my foot in my mouth. It’s an interesting place, for sure.
…I thought that was a cutesy joke. But that’s not what I meant. They said sauce rhymes with horse. So either they say “source” for sauce or hoss for horse.
But that actually checks for a Boston accident now that I think of it.
😒 Even though I am a slim 2-meter tall blonde blue-eyed rude narcissistic guy with a strong Dutch accent living in Amsterdam, eating sandwiches for lunch, even though I can ride a bike and skipper a ship in any weather with equal ease, and I do enjoy making fun of Brits, I am not Dutch. I also drink more tea than you do :P
Americans are goofy af “criss cross applesauce” bitch that don’t even rhyme
Am American, I know the phrase criss cross applesauce, but have never heard it used seriously. I’ve always said and heard, cross legged. Years ago it was called Indian style but I haven’t heard that in years.
Yeah, was Indian style as a kid in the early '90s. Little kids need some mnemonic device to literally just not fly off the face of the earth, and so that was the replacement they came up with. Cross-legged just doesn’t grab a kid’s attention like mashed apples.
My teacher had a whole other verse. /Criss-crossed applesauce /Quiet as a mouse
Where does sauce rhyme with mouse?
You’re missing the rest of the rhyme.
OK kids, come over and sit criss cross applesauce, quiet as a mouse. Do as I say, or I’ll come to your house. That’s where I might just talk to your mother, and see if we should replace you with another.
uk we say “cross legged” or “cross leggéd” if you’re feeling Shakespearean
Fun fact: in Hungarian we say “Turkish sitting” (törökülés).
In German we call it “tailor’s seat” (Schneidersitz).
Boring fact: it’s also “sit like a Turk” or “sit the Turkish way” in Russian (сидеть по-турецки).
Now I’m curious what they say in Turkish.
UPD: me and @TheGreenGolem@lemm.ee are referring to the Lotus position which is what it is called in Turkish.
I’m always feeling Shakespearean
American accents seem to prefer the Shakespearean version: “Wicked”, “Dogged” but not “Curved” for whatever reason. Maybe it has to do with the tendency for the word to be used as a verb. “Curved” is usually an adjective but sometimes a verb, while “Wicked” is nearly always an adjective.
I think it’s often to distinguish between two words that would otherwise be homophones.
There’s “wick’ed” (two syllables) as in “something wicked this way comes” and “wicked” (one syllable) as in “Grady wicked away the spilled avocaat from Jack Torrence’s jacket with a towel”.
There’s “dogg’ed” (two syllables) as in “dogged perseverance”, but also “dogged” (one syllable) as in “Javert dogged Valjean for many years”.
I don’t have one for “curved” though. I think i’ve only ever heard it as one syllable, except for maybe in cases where poetic meter requires use of an “èd”. Although, I think “curv’ed’ly” has three syllables, but I might be making that up. Typing up this comment has given me semantic satiation.
But, yeah, I think you’re right about the adjective vs verb thing. The two-syllable examples are adjectives, while the one-syllable examples are verbs. Except for curved…
Is this a quote? I don’t understand how it doesn’t rhyme.
It does in an American accent, I guess
In my accent (UK), “cross” rhymes with “boss”, and “sauce” rhymes with “horse”. Pretty sure boss and horse don’t rhyme.
If I’m understanding correctly then the words “sauce” and “source” are indistinguishable when spoken by a brit?
Pretty much yeah!
Source will have emphasis on the r.
Its important because if youre at the dinner table and ask for sauce wrong, mum will pass you 273,000 lines of javascript.
That’s borderline child abuse
and horse doesn’t??
Depends on who you ask.
It’s the same in Aussie English
Looks that way…
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/sauce
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/source
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/course
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/horse
Wait, so the non-rhotic accent adds an “r” into words that don’t have one? I guess all your "r"s at the ends of words need to go somewhere…
Huh? Well, yes, but that’s not what’s happening, here. What you’re referencing is “that sofa is red” becoming “that sofa rizz red”. I’m not adding an “r” to “sauce” haha.
Are you adding an r to cross or removing one from horse?
Neither?
You are adding or removing a letter sound if horse rhymes with sauce.
Eh. The British phonetic for horse is “haws”. And the British phonetic for sauce is “saws”.
Apparently the Brits lose as many R’s as those of us in New England.
Nope, just not rhoticising the “r” in “horse”. Different to just removing it, which would create “hose”.
…which UK accent? Big place, loads of regional differences.
I’m from the East midlands.
“Why Im I being fired, Bauss? Is it because I pronounce it ‘Hoss?’”
Probably, yeah
Because sauce and horse are long and cross and boss are short, right?
I’m not a native speaker but our lord and savior Dr Lindsey made a great video about British English and what Americans get wrong about it.
For me as a second language learner, cross rhymes with boss but sauce neither rhymes with horse nor boss. But that’s just me tho.
Great video! His stuff is brilliant. I’m a native speaker but every now and then one of his videos will pop up in my feed and I’ll end up learning about how I talk lol. Highly recommended for anyone interested in fascinating deep dives into speech.
Whenever there are these kinds of threads there’s always loads of people posting things like “sauce rhymes with boss not horse” or something.
This rhyming and text based approach is confusing because in different accents words might be pronounced differently than how the writer is pronouncing them and they may all rhyme or none of them may rhyme.
If you’re not familiar with phonetic spelling (most people I know aren’t) then audio clips with the differences are probably the way to go. Just typing random words isn’t a great way of comparing accents.
Per the (extremely fascinating) video, it seems that phonetic spelling from the dictionary doesn’t always capture the correct pronunciation, or mechanically what is happening with the mouth… E.g. US “blue” with the ‘w’ at the end where we release the lips when done with the o. Hm.
I hadn’t really thought much about how, mechanically, one has to reposition one’s tongue, jaw, and lips to shift between the end and beginning of words and that can lead to a glide(?) or modulation if we speak without stopping airflow between words.
I suppose we should think of pronunciation in terms of motor planning for tongue, jaw, lips, etc. to be more accurately descriptive.
I need an example pronunciation of how it doesn’t rhyme because the only way I can hear it in my head rhymes. I’ve never heard of this name for the seating method though.
Cross rhymes with boss, toss, moss, loss, Ross.
Sauce rhymes with horse, coarse, force.
So for them to rhyme you would either have to say “crawse” or “Soss”
“Soss” is how we pronounce “sauce” and I don’t know where you’re finding the “r” sound.
the “au” makes a sound like ‘oar’ like in “pause”
Wait… if “sauce” is “sorse”, how is “source” pronounced?
Those are homophones. If I told you about the source of the Nile I could be talking about something Egyptians put on their chips.
All occurrences of “au”? Audience? Cautious? Daughter? Or is there some kind of restraint like only if the proceeding consonant is hard or soft?
I have posted an audio clip up there ↑ in this very thread!
All those examples are the same sounds to me. With how English spelling is, there are ‘au’ words I say differently (I say “because” like “b’cuzz”), but I can’t think of any that would rhyme with cross
Exactly the same way. Sauce and source are the same for us in England.
So to us, it’s like OP is saying “criss cross apple source”, which just sounds silly.
In the US, it really doesn’t.
The proper American phonetic for sauce is “saas”. The proper american phonetic for cross is “craas”.
I think you MIGHT be able to defend it for British English, which use phonetics “kros” and “haws” and “saws” for above words. But I would say “aws” and “os” phonetics are close enough to to count as rhyming by most standards, and classical poetry uses far less clear rhymes commonly.
I (Brit) didn’t even recognise it as intended as a rhyme until I read this comment section
That’s really interesting. I ran it through a british tts and it sounded closer than a lot of classic poetry rhymes… Yeah, it’s not exactly the same, but it’s similar.
Run that string through an American English TTS, and you’ll see exactly how perfect it rhymes.
If you check back on this thread, I’ve posted audio of how I say it. I think it’s ‘cross’ that’s really different - US doesn’t really have that short o sound but has an ‘aw’ instead. If I say ‘criss craws applesauce’ then the intended rhyme makes itself clear.
“Cross” is very short in British English dialects, meanwhile “sauce” is much closer to “source”, to the point that they’re almost indistinguishable. American English dialects tend to elongate the “ahh” sounds.
Sauce: I used to speak in American, but now I speak in bastardised English where I trip off the path and whipe my ass on the grass, but no one ever knows how I might pronounce those words.
Have you ever been to Bristol? The way they pronounce “half” reminds me of American accents. Not “half” like the Queen’s English, not “haff” like some places oop norff, but “haaaff” said with kind of a wide mouth. It perhaps makes sense, as Bristol was a port town that a lot of early immigrants to America started from.
That and Scottish kids. I think they watch so much YouTube these days (particularly up in the middle of nowhere) that they pick up a twang of American.
I wanted to say something about the influence of West Indian immigrants on Bristol culture, but I don’t know enough about it to be confident of not putting my foot in my mouth. It’s an interesting place, for sure.
sss-ahhw-ss
Sorry sauce rhymes with horse? Y’all say source?
Yeah, why do think people as for a “sauce” when someone posts a picture on the internet?
…I thought that was a cutesy joke. But that’s not what I meant. They said sauce rhymes with horse. So either they say “source” for sauce or hoss for horse.
But that actually checks for a Boston accident now that I think of it.
Oi! D’you 'ave a loicense for that criticism bruv?!
funny and original
How can you downvote literal British humour against someone trying to do fake British humour?? Sarcastic depravation is the name of the game.
It doesn’t work in my accent either, but think about how some people write ‘lawl’ as a phonetic of ‘lol’
That’s literally the American pronunciation though…
BEHOLD FOR I (a brit) HAVE RECORDED AUDIO!
this is why the phrase “criss cross applesauce” does not rhyme in British English. cross rhymes with boss, sauce rhymes with horse. Criss cross applesauce. (sorry for quality - I didn’t realize my phone mic was such garbage)
Yay vocaroo! Can someone record the same phrase in British?
😒 Watch it Dutchie, or we’ll start sending more drunk stag weekenders
(I put in an edit to make clear that I am, in fact, British)
Well, I still don’t see how it does not rhyme.
😒 Even though I am a slim 2-meter tall blonde blue-eyed rude narcissistic guy with a strong Dutch accent living in Amsterdam, eating sandwiches for lunch, even though I can ride a bike and skipper a ship in any weather with equal ease, and I do enjoy making fun of Brits, I am not Dutch. I also drink more tea than you do :P
I think that was the transitional terminology from when they used to tell kids to sit “indian style”
I literally has this exact conversation back when I saw this on Reddit.
“History always repeats itself” or something.
Rhymes in my dialect.
We called it sitting Indian style. Idkw.