these are good green flags. I see the flak youre getting from folks doing the whole “make fun of vegans on the internet” thing, and wanted to say that the vegans Ive met irl have been really chill folks that are willing to make sacrifices for a better society. idk why vegans get trashed on online for sharing the long list of pros for veganism, as if people don’t share opinions online all the time.
personally, I’m on a reduce animal products in ways i can with an occasional “treat yo-self” day, but that’s mostly because ive lived a lot of my life being poor and havent always been able to select my own diet.
excited for more lab grown options, and I love when vegan options exist because they are usually unique, delicious, and dont have dairy(am allergic).
We’re all on our own journey. I spent 25 years eating, wearing, or otherwise using our fellow earthlings to various degrees before I realised I didn’t want to be someone who kills when I don’t have to.
I am grateful for what kindness you practice and I hope you will continue to reflect on your relationship with earthlings.
Of course, authority is a pretty fucked up concept as implemented in our society. It’s almost always nothing more than the threat of violence for not subsuming your own needs to the needs of another. The other usually claiming that privilege through nonsense like birthright, wealth, closeness to power structures or similar.
Anyone who uses such a ridiculous thing is at best a fool. Calling out injustice and laughing at awful people is definitely a green flag.
Consider say the difference between interacting with a cop and a firefighter. The cop claims authority, do what they say or be tortured into compliance. The firefighter has no authority and yet I’ll bet you trust everything they say a lot more than the cop and are far more willing to cooperate.
There’s a lot of writing on subtle details of sorts of authority and it’s a bit of a problem with language.
You could say that you voluntarily grant the firefighter temporary authority in some circumstances or whatever but to avoid quibbling over language for essays let’s agree that there is a difference between someone imposing authority vs an individual deciding to believe someone should be listened to because of some domain expertise.
It’s probably due to autism traits but “mocking authority” sounds like just mocking anyone relying on previous experience or education rather being able to justify their position in the situation at hand.
Compare to the logical fallacy of “relying on authority”
When it comes to fire safety, I don’t need to know exactly with sources why some areas need to be “fire cells” while other areas, similar in my eyes, doesn’t if the information comes from a fire fighter. I rely completely on his/her authority on the matter and doesn’t need any more evidence to let the fire fighter enforce those laws and regulations.
Im guessing that in this context “authority” in the thread starter text is shorthand for “perceived authority by the enforcer without real and safe recourse for the person having authority enforced upon”?
Since both the cop and fire fighter have means of legal repercussions if their authority is not followed I mean.
I’m not sure I follow. For the purposes of my example the firefighter has no legal recourse if you don’t listen. They’re just random volunteers where I live.
I don’t want to get too hung up on definitions because that’s counter productive I think. So what I’m talking about is that sometimes humans rely on power, real or perceived, in order to demand that others subsume their own desires and submit to those of the powerful.
Examples are police and other violent gangs - do what I say or I shoot you, capitalists - work for me or I will starve you, shitty parents - do what I say or I will hurt you.
I am calling that authority, notice that at no point is there consent from the person authority is being claimed over (it’s not consent if it’s coerced).
On the other hand people sometimes agree to perform certain roles with each other, or to be bound by certain rules in order to undertake some endeavour. For example when I am teaching my niece science she agrees to solve the problems I ask her to solve, but there is no coercion here. She is free to say at any moment “no” and I am free to either withdraw my offer to teach, ask a different question, propose a break or whatever else. Similarly working groups might elect someone among them to manage a project, but this isn’t authority (as I have defined above) if they are free to relect a project manager, refuse directions or whatever.
Various writers have waffled to varying extents trying to pin down specific definitions. I side with those who think it’s clearer to distinguish between the two social arrangements by not calling the second one authority.
Where I live the fire fighters are a professional force tasked with emergency tasks as well as enforcing compliance with fire safety regulations, as an example an association I work with had to pay a fine due to having some of the smoke detectors non functioning. Thats an authority I have no issue with, with goes back to the word “mocking” authority rather than “questioning” authority.
One sounds like the refusal of having another party authority over oneself, the latter implies a valuation if the authority is proper, fitting and reasonable or not.
but it’s not the legal repurcussions that make you listen. If anything they undermine, as you need to establish whether advice is genuine or somebody throwing their weight around.
Mocking authority for me would be a red flag as it’s a sign of immaturity. The people in my life that do this are the ones that tend to be emotionally rash, and inability to control emotions is a huge red flag.
However not just submitting to authority and being confident enough to stand up to it while being respectful, that’s a green flag.
What do you gain from treating them with disrespect, other than escalation? Nobody likes being disrespected, regardless of whether or not they deserve / have earned that respect. By operating on a baseline of “give people the benefit of the doubt and treat them with respect by default” you open a world of constructive / logical discussion that would be closed if you were emotional.
To me, mocking someone is a person’s way of saying “I don’t have a well thought out argument against X, so I’ll just give it a nickname and talk shit about it”.
If you have to think of one person who is famous for mocking anyone / anything they don’t like, who would it be? For me, the first person that comes to mind is Trump. Is that someone who is worth modelling your behaviour after?
I’m infamous for understanding to an extent, but that’s like saying “Japanese police are bad, therefore being in the Yakuza is a green flag”. I too am not that fond of authority, but that doesn’t make every robber a Robin Hood.
Violent thugs claim authority regardless of the source. The cops claim the law enables them to torture you into compliance, the gangs claim it by right of might.
The reason is not relevant, laugh at them all (where doing so won’t get you killed).
This doesn’t mean fuck rules or cooperation. If my friends and I play a board game we all agree to be bound by collective rules for the pursuit of some mutual fun. Of course nobody has authority in the same sense, anyone is free to say “I don’t think this rule is fun, can we change it?” or “I’m not having fun right now, I’m sorry but I’d like to stop playing”.
I love people who help others, I just also love it when those helpful people burst out laughing when someone says “that’s Mr Bossman to you!”.
As to your reply to other person, yeah a lot of people don’t respect authority and laugh at it. I think it’s a green flag. Some people kiss the ring and lick the boot. Those people scare me because I can’t think of any reason except that they dream of being over another.
I thought you meant in an antagonistic sense, like someone who gestures they’re at war with authority, especially in favor of doing anything and everything.
Well if that’s what you mean, don’t we all mock people in authority at times? We do live in a memes culture after all. I commonly joke about how the police where I live are a family business, especially as they aren’t that great.
It’s not that, it’s just the baggage that comes with it. It’s like a partner telling you they have two small kids you have to deal with. At first it’s fine, but then the pressure grows on you until one night you find yourself about to sacrifice the neighbours cat for a piece of that sweet sweet flesh, blood raining down as you tear the feline on half, its final yowls turning raw and gutteral whilst the life winks slowly out of its eyes to be reborn elsewhere in another life no doubt.
Exactly, it’s the cool factor that is the main driving force. Every time I go to the kebab shop, I pop on my sunglasses, sidle up casually to the counter and raise two fingers to the meatkeep, signalling that I want two baby deer on a pizza - stat! - and then I slide him two dollars across the counter, to sweeten the deal, and with a wink he throws in a hamster for that extra zest.
I chug down my ayran like a boss so fast that it makes the girls gasp, and then I grab my pizza and action roll out of the shop, tossing finger guns at everyone in sight. I aaaaaay across the road, fonzie-style, and tip the local crackhead generously with the end of mood ring to show him that I care and that I’m down.
I’m not a saint. If people are going to try and hurt me I’m going to ridicule them.
Go audit what that person has said.
Besides maybe I’m a piece of shit, there’s no guarrantee I fulfill my own green flags.
I actually frequently identify myself as a human garbage fire, which is funny really. Like I am a human garbage fire and even I am vegan, so what does that make non vegans?
See that breaks down when there are victims. Even if we stick to non human animals I’m sure you have negative opinions about some of the following: whaling, dog fighting, dog eating, skinning cats, horse racing, circus animals, pet hoarding, shark nets.
Like everyone is familiar with the idea that there are acceptable ways to seek pleasure in the world and some line beyond which they say “no you’re victimising another for your own gain. I do not think that is acceptable”. Even anti vegans rarely endorse arbitrary use of non human animals for pleasure.
So you are probably comfortable with the idea that you can’t just say “live and let live” and be done with it. That works for whether you want to plant red roses and I want to plant pink ones, or you like toffee and I like cake. It doesn’t apply when lives are on the line.
Killing/hurting beings that want to live and suffer when you don’t have to is wrong. It is a wrong thing to do.
ikr, ITT, people getting mad they don’t fit into / agree with a strangers green flag list. The world is a wild place and I hope it’s not as hostile or absurd as I believe it is.
The V word makes people go nuts because they know they ought to be.
Notice how nobody is flipping out about my preference for people unfraid of getting their hands dirty, or imagine if I had written Buddhist. Would anyone have replied that it’s a red flag for them or written weird fantasies about anti Buddhist violence?
It upsets people because we all know killing animals is wrong. It’s easy and it’s tasty though. We tell ourselves it’s ok because everyone else is, but then a vegan comes along and the illusion shatters.
i see your mocks authority and raise you an acab.
these are good green flags. I see the flak youre getting from folks doing the whole “make fun of vegans on the internet” thing, and wanted to say that the vegans Ive met irl have been really chill folks that are willing to make sacrifices for a better society. idk why vegans get trashed on online for sharing the long list of pros for veganism, as if people don’t share opinions online all the time.
personally, I’m on a reduce animal products in ways i can with an occasional “treat yo-self” day, but that’s mostly because ive lived a lot of my life being poor and havent always been able to select my own diet.
excited for more lab grown options, and I love when vegan options exist because they are usually unique, delicious, and dont have dairy(am allergic).
We’re all on our own journey. I spent 25 years eating, wearing, or otherwise using our fellow earthlings to various degrees before I realised I didn’t want to be someone who kills when I don’t have to.
I am grateful for what kindness you practice and I hope you will continue to reflect on your relationship with earthlings.
Sounds awesome!
Mocking authority is a green flag?
Of course, authority is a pretty fucked up concept as implemented in our society. It’s almost always nothing more than the threat of violence for not subsuming your own needs to the needs of another. The other usually claiming that privilege through nonsense like birthright, wealth, closeness to power structures or similar.
Anyone who uses such a ridiculous thing is at best a fool. Calling out injustice and laughing at awful people is definitely a green flag.
Consider say the difference between interacting with a cop and a firefighter. The cop claims authority, do what they say or be tortured into compliance. The firefighter has no authority and yet I’ll bet you trust everything they say a lot more than the cop and are far more willing to cooperate.
The firefighter is an authority on fire safety, and shouldn’t be mocked for that authority
There’s a lot of writing on subtle details of sorts of authority and it’s a bit of a problem with language.
You could say that you voluntarily grant the firefighter temporary authority in some circumstances or whatever but to avoid quibbling over language for essays let’s agree that there is a difference between someone imposing authority vs an individual deciding to believe someone should be listened to because of some domain expertise.
It’s probably due to autism traits but “mocking authority” sounds like just mocking anyone relying on previous experience or education rather being able to justify their position in the situation at hand. Compare to the logical fallacy of “relying on authority”
When it comes to fire safety, I don’t need to know exactly with sources why some areas need to be “fire cells” while other areas, similar in my eyes, doesn’t if the information comes from a fire fighter. I rely completely on his/her authority on the matter and doesn’t need any more evidence to let the fire fighter enforce those laws and regulations.
Im guessing that in this context “authority” in the thread starter text is shorthand for “perceived authority by the enforcer without real and safe recourse for the person having authority enforced upon”?
Since both the cop and fire fighter have means of legal repercussions if their authority is not followed I mean.
I’m not sure I follow. For the purposes of my example the firefighter has no legal recourse if you don’t listen. They’re just random volunteers where I live.
I don’t want to get too hung up on definitions because that’s counter productive I think. So what I’m talking about is that sometimes humans rely on power, real or perceived, in order to demand that others subsume their own desires and submit to those of the powerful.
Examples are police and other violent gangs - do what I say or I shoot you, capitalists - work for me or I will starve you, shitty parents - do what I say or I will hurt you.
I am calling that authority, notice that at no point is there consent from the person authority is being claimed over (it’s not consent if it’s coerced).
On the other hand people sometimes agree to perform certain roles with each other, or to be bound by certain rules in order to undertake some endeavour. For example when I am teaching my niece science she agrees to solve the problems I ask her to solve, but there is no coercion here. She is free to say at any moment “no” and I am free to either withdraw my offer to teach, ask a different question, propose a break or whatever else. Similarly working groups might elect someone among them to manage a project, but this isn’t authority (as I have defined above) if they are free to relect a project manager, refuse directions or whatever.
Various writers have waffled to varying extents trying to pin down specific definitions. I side with those who think it’s clearer to distinguish between the two social arrangements by not calling the second one authority.
Where I live the fire fighters are a professional force tasked with emergency tasks as well as enforcing compliance with fire safety regulations, as an example an association I work with had to pay a fine due to having some of the smoke detectors non functioning. Thats an authority I have no issue with, with goes back to the word “mocking” authority rather than “questioning” authority.
One sounds like the refusal of having another party authority over oneself, the latter implies a valuation if the authority is proper, fitting and reasonable or not.
but it’s not the legal repurcussions that make you listen. If anything they undermine, as you need to establish whether advice is genuine or somebody throwing their weight around.
Mocking authority for me would be a red flag as it’s a sign of immaturity. The people in my life that do this are the ones that tend to be emotionally rash, and inability to control emotions is a huge red flag.
However not just submitting to authority and being confident enough to stand up to it while being respectful, that’s a green flag.
why respect someone who’s threatening you? That’s the implicit case with authority “bow to me or I will make you suffer”
Who gains anything there except the authoritarian? Why do you want people to respect that?
We get on with each other fine without it.
What do you gain from treating them with disrespect, other than escalation? Nobody likes being disrespected, regardless of whether or not they deserve / have earned that respect. By operating on a baseline of “give people the benefit of the doubt and treat them with respect by default” you open a world of constructive / logical discussion that would be closed if you were emotional.
To me, mocking someone is a person’s way of saying “I don’t have a well thought out argument against X, so I’ll just give it a nickname and talk shit about it”.
If you have to think of one person who is famous for mocking anyone / anything they don’t like, who would it be? For me, the first person that comes to mind is Trump. Is that someone who is worth modelling your behaviour after?
ability to reasonable and critical common sense thinking, when it’s against the hive mind of their surroundings – > greenest of all green flags 😉
I’m infamous for understanding to an extent, but that’s like saying “Japanese police are bad, therefore being in the Yakuza is a green flag”. I too am not that fond of authority, but that doesn’t make every robber a Robin Hood.
I missed this.
Violent thugs claim authority regardless of the source. The cops claim the law enables them to torture you into compliance, the gangs claim it by right of might.
The reason is not relevant, laugh at them all (where doing so won’t get you killed).
This doesn’t mean fuck rules or cooperation. If my friends and I play a board game we all agree to be bound by collective rules for the pursuit of some mutual fun. Of course nobody has authority in the same sense, anyone is free to say “I don’t think this rule is fun, can we change it?” or “I’m not having fun right now, I’m sorry but I’d like to stop playing”.
I love people who help others, I just also love it when those helpful people burst out laughing when someone says “that’s Mr Bossman to you!”.
As to your reply to other person, yeah a lot of people don’t respect authority and laugh at it. I think it’s a green flag. Some people kiss the ring and lick the boot. Those people scare me because I can’t think of any reason except that they dream of being over another.
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I thought you meant in an antagonistic sense, like someone who gestures they’re at war with authority, especially in favor of doing anything and everything.
Well if that’s what you mean, don’t we all mock people in authority at times? We do live in a memes culture after all. I commonly joke about how the police where I live are a family business, especially as they aren’t that great.
Seems you are using that brain again. Didn’t school teach you not to do that?
Cop and firefighter was a good example.
OK then, literally 1984
What do you mean with
Is an earthling a human, an animal, a plant or subsets of those three? And what is walking through an earthling?
I’m geniuenly curious, I have no idea what you mean.
Earthlings are all of us, all sentient beings. We are from earth, we are the earthlings.
Like not just plowing through birds foraging, or lizards sunbaking, or ants doing a nuptial flight or whatever.
Considering others’ right to use space equal to their own.
That makes much more sense, my first intuition was passing people on the sidewalk which… doesn’t seem like a red flag.
Yeah, that sounds like a fun dude (I’m assuming dude given the kind of work he does). I’ve never met him, though.
my wife is the light of my life .
Vegan is a red flag for me.
Same. I prefer partners without willpower
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Good to know you’re both cruel and insecure. Thanks for sharing with the group
It’s not that, it’s just the baggage that comes with it. It’s like a partner telling you they have two small kids you have to deal with. At first it’s fine, but then the pressure grows on you until one night you find yourself about to sacrifice the neighbours cat for a piece of that sweet sweet flesh, blood raining down as you tear the feline on half, its final yowls turning raw and gutteral whilst the life winks slowly out of its eyes to be reborn elsewhere in another life no doubt.
You know, small stuff like that.
this comment is school shooter coded
nah im too old for that. It’d be more work-related if anything, and even then I like my colleagues so who would I kill, Bart, who would I kill?
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Mmm death murder blood.
You’re /so/ cool
Exactly, it’s the cool factor that is the main driving force. Every time I go to the kebab shop, I pop on my sunglasses, sidle up casually to the counter and raise two fingers to the meatkeep, signalling that I want two baby deer on a pizza - stat! - and then I slide him two dollars across the counter, to sweeten the deal, and with a wink he throws in a hamster for that extra zest.
I chug down my ayran like a boss so fast that it makes the girls gasp, and then I grab my pizza and action roll out of the shop, tossing finger guns at everyone in sight. I aaaaaay across the road, fonzie-style, and tip the local crackhead generously with the end of mood ring to show him that I care and that I’m down.
That’s just how I roll.
Can I be cool too?
putting down the wheel of time and reading the malazan book of the fallen would be a pretty cool thing to do ;)
This comment is neither soft spoken nor patient.
I’m not a saint. If people are going to try and hurt me I’m going to ridicule them.
Go audit what that person has said.
Besides maybe I’m a piece of shit, there’s no guarrantee I fulfill my own green flags.
I actually frequently identify myself as a human garbage fire, which is funny really. Like I am a human garbage fire and even I am vegan, so what does that make non vegans?
I’m eating a nice juicy burger right now. Yum!
Congrats, you’re as insufferable as the people you’re trying to offend!
I’m not vegan so this doesn’t offend me.
you might not be offended, but you’re definitely insufferable
I’m not vegan either, but you’re still annoying lol
Congrats I suppose
I’m not a vampire, it’s not like waving the idea of death at me is going to send me slinking back to my verdant fields.
Humans are omnivores, nothing to feel bad about.
Nobody should feel shame for what their body can do. That doesn’t mean we should do it.
We have all sorts of abilities, we can drop kick babies for example. Doesn’t mean you should do that.
You do you, I’ll do me.
See that breaks down when there are victims. Even if we stick to non human animals I’m sure you have negative opinions about some of the following: whaling, dog fighting, dog eating, skinning cats, horse racing, circus animals, pet hoarding, shark nets.
Like everyone is familiar with the idea that there are acceptable ways to seek pleasure in the world and some line beyond which they say “no you’re victimising another for your own gain. I do not think that is acceptable”. Even anti vegans rarely endorse arbitrary use of non human animals for pleasure.
So you are probably comfortable with the idea that you can’t just say “live and let live” and be done with it. That works for whether you want to plant red roses and I want to plant pink ones, or you like toffee and I like cake. It doesn’t apply when lives are on the line.
Killing/hurting beings that want to live and suffer when you don’t have to is wrong. It is a wrong thing to do.
You said vegan. That explains the downvotes… And you said it as the first point even. Next time leave it for last!
I’m not going to hide my values. They’re not shameful
ikr, ITT, people getting mad they don’t fit into / agree with a strangers green flag list. The world is a wild place and I hope it’s not as hostile or absurd as I believe it is.
The V word makes people go nuts because they know they ought to be.
Notice how nobody is flipping out about my preference for people unfraid of getting their hands dirty, or imagine if I had written Buddhist. Would anyone have replied that it’s a red flag for them or written weird fantasies about anti Buddhist violence?
It upsets people because we all know killing animals is wrong. It’s easy and it’s tasty though. We tell ourselves it’s ok because everyone else is, but then a vegan comes along and the illusion shatters.
At the time of writing, the comment only has 32% downvotes.
Lemmy is a lot more vegan friendly than most places on the internet.
A lot of the hatred of vegens comes from fossil fascists, and they get banned here.
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