Americans need to stop saying the Democrats want universal healthcare. They don’t and they’ve made that clear numerous times.
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AOC deserves criticism for voting to prevent the rail union strikes. Quite insufficient IMO. Just because someone is worse does not make you fit for public office.
Have higher standards. If we let the republicans set the bar we will be six feet under in no time.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
The existence of the putrid does not make trash good
MTG is just there for the lols. She was rich before she got elected and gotten even richer since. She’a there to pass out the matches and watch the world burn
And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don’t pass it despite having a majority.
Both sides aren’t the same, but their choices produce the same results.
There’s always conveniently a cohort of Dems that vote against party lines. Every. Time. Then they can shrug and say “welp, we tried”.
Two sides of the same capitalist shit sandwich.
Not the same results exactly, more that the dems enable the republicans by not pushing back, but both are far below the standard we should accept.
And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don’t pass it despite having a majority.
Obamacare saved my life and was the product of immense effort at a time when the Dems were more conservative than they are today. Blue Dogs were wiped out in 2010 and 2012 because of that (correct) rage against them.
You can say what the Dems managed to do was not enough - and it’s not. Millions of people are not as lucky as me (though I suppose poverty is a strange kind of luck - poverty in a blue state, perhaps, more appropriately) and still suffer immensely under our utterly fucked healthcare system. But it’s not the same result as doing nothing - or worse, handing control over to the GOP. Millions like me owe a greatly improved quality of life, or our very lives, to the reforms passed.
If you have a plan to destroy the Dems and replace them all with left-wing progressives, and put demo charges on the base of our utterly fucked rat’s nest of a government structure, I’m not here to tell you not to. But I am here to tell you that both sides are not the same for millions of disadvantaged demographics, even if the Dems are not enough for those selfsame demographics.
That’s really the one big thing I can think of that they did get through.
It got like 80mil people health insurance which was great.
It was still a huge compromise from the free universal healthcare that was the original goal.
It’s worth noting that Obama did this by going around party leadership. Once he was in power he did not obey the DNC like other candidates have.
It’s worth noting that Obama did this by going around party leadership. Once he was in power he did not obey the DNC like other candidates have.
I mean, the president is party leadership. And Biden, an ardent party loyalist, is the only Dem president in the past 50 years which has been in lockstep with the wider party.
When i say “the party” i mean the privately ran organization who is legally allowed to choose whoever their canidate is, and doesn’t have to legally hold a fair primary election or any election at all.
Sure the president gets a temporary seat at the table, but the other DNC leaders do not want them to be in control.
The fact that Obama tried to push free healthcare made the DNC leadership furious, because that isn’t what he told them before the primaries. But because they were stuck with him they instead had other loyalist dems try to help Republicans block his policies and then enjoyed the popularity Obama was bringing to the party.
Both sides aren’t the same, but their choices produce the same results.
The last few weeks are clear evidence of the opposite.
Kids were still in cages during Biden. Prison slave population still highest history. Biden started the genocide and handed it over to trump. Biden deported more people than trump. Biden didn’t feel like codifing roe. No min wage discussions whatsoever. No universal healthcare. Harris wanted a stronger border than trump and bragged about it. Half of the US can’t even afford a 1 bedroom apartment under Biden and Trump alike.
The two parties exist to appease their corporate donors. Nothing they do is in your interests.
By the way, progressive measures passed in many states, even states that Trump won. People want progressive policy but neither party is willing to deliver. This is a feature, not a bug, of capitalism.
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Kids weren’t being forced back to labour in factories by the CEO of Amazon -see Florida.
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State Prison populations logarithmically dwarf federal prison populations, overwhelmingly Red States With Mississippi, Lousiana, Oklahoma, Idaho, Arizona, Texas, Georgia as the magnificent 7. All notoriously with a racial bias. No democrat president would have made the move or received the support necessary to dismantle private prisons at this point in history. What Trump is doing is not legal, you cannot rule by executive order, the judiciary are just all bought or neutered right now.
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Biden’s white house was about economic recovery because that was what was most important after Trump racked up the deficit. America enjoyed the lowest impact of inflation with the most economic regrowth of any country in the world after COVID. Things are significantly worse elsewhere. Inflation was going down under Biden, but social media gaslit the nation into believing it was way worse and once again that Trickle down economics would fix it.
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Crashing and burning the global economy was Big Tech’s goal, under Biden the judiciary ordered Alphabet to break up Google’s monopoly. It was just too late to happen at that point. No other government gave enough of a shit about our personal privacy and freedom to attempt to break the single largest corporate spy network in the history of existence. The democrats didn’t do everything we wanted them to, that doesn’t mean they didn’t make some very important and historically significant moves.
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There was no presidential immunity until the very end of Biden’s presidency at which point he was in noticeable mental decline and there was no supreme court stacked in his favour.
It’s not black and white, is all I’m saying. The constant self-criticism is what splits the Democratic party, reduces the turnout and allowed corporatism the opening to advantage themselves. We’re lucky Trump still has the energy to rule without having the mental faculties to let others call all the shots. Sometimes, better than literal fascists is enough.
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MTG is far more welcome in her party than AOC is in hers.
The neoliberal DNC sees the Republicans as their esteemed opposition, as they are on the same take and have the same orders on Economic policy. They see spoilers like AOC, who are not on the corpo bribe train and for profound economic policy changes, as their enemy.
https://apnews.com/article/business-nancy-pelosi-congress-8685e82eb6d6e5b42413417f3d5d6775
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/04/15/nancy-pelosi-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-481704
The Democrats, almost all of them save a couple of spoilers, aren’t the fascists themselves, but they’ve spent the last half century enabling the fascists. The Democrats don’t care about entire industries of confidence schemes murdering Americans like our deathcare industry, they don’t care about poor kids getting a good education, and they dont care about millions of our most betrayed neighbors dying in the streets. As the bad cop Fascists brag about how much they love the schaudenfreude of the pain those people are in, the good cop neoliberals shrug “free market forces, sorry! But I do affirm your identity, homeless dying/lifesaving healthcare denied person!”
That’s why there really isn’t hope until we collapse, hopefully by our hands in revolution and not by oligarch made climate change in a couple decades. Best, best, best, best case scenario, we have a real election in 3. 5 years and the Neoliberals gain power, do NOTHING to reign in the oligarchs, income inequity, or our sociopathic, murderous capital markets as they’re gleefully paid not to do. Fascism is the takeover of the state to serve big capital’s need for ever moar, and so the table will remain set to go back on the fascist march in just another 4 years.
Anyone that has to hear “the two parties are not the same” is too stupid to change their tiny little mind and recognize it.
They have to live with the fact they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold, it’s also the only thing their stupid little minds can use to go on without acknowledging their conscience that wants them to yeet themselves out a window.
They have to live with the fact they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold,
They think Thalmann did nothing wrong, so if anything, they celebrate that they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold.
I once got a death threat here on lemmy for suggesting that democrats were better than Republicans. That was interesting to say the least
You’re not wrong. Apparently the truth stung someone pretty hard.
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Sure, one “party” is fascist and the other “party” is collaborators. Lots of differences to point out there.
Yawn.
Yet another goon who hasn’t bothered looking up both party’s voting history or criminal conviction history.
Do your homework.
He did do his homework. He’s not saying this shit out of ignorance but out of malice. He’s a Russian shill.
You begin to recognize the usernames.
not saying this shit out of…malice.
Russian shill.
Idk, seems pretty malacious to me.
I’m guessing you’re not a native English speaker?
I’d argue that Nancy Pelosy is more representative of the dems than AOC.
Well, I’d argue Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals, which most of us are not.
I’d even argue is Nancy even a dem at this point she’s more of a centrist parading around as a dem.
Sounds like you don’t know what a Dem is
You know “centrist” is not a political party, right? Fuckin kids these days, what are they teaching you…
Literally nothing considering I’m an adult these days. But how’s being a smug ass hat been going for ya?
Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals
Yes which is much closer to who the Dems are representing as a whole
That’s fair I’d agree with it.
While Nancy’s actual politics may be more centrists than dem, shes still one of the old guards that must go away for any actual change in the party.
The Dems are centrists. They always have been.
Dems are centrists.
Dems are a far right party that only look centrist if you squint looking at them from inside fascist crazy town.
To basically anyone in the developed world, of which we are not, Luigi murdered a mass murderer, to any fascist or neoliberal here, we have to let murderers for profit let the free market decide who gets life saving healthcare, as just 1 of innumerable examples.
Neoliberals don’t squee like little girls at the hello kitty store when people suffer and die needlessly when it facilitates private profit as the Fascists do, but they don’t see it as the social fabric betrayal and atrocity it is either. “free market forces, mr dying homeless person, but I support your right to die in the gutter of hunger and exposure as any identity you choose!” Because it’s free to, but people need their basic survival met first, and that takes resources that go to them and not the robber barons that pay off both parties.
agreed. In context, they’re centrists for the States. Bernie is only barely left of center to the rest of the world but considered extreme here by corporate media and the other government clowns.
Bernie is only barely left of center to the rest of the world
When people say dumbass shit like this it makes me wonder what part of the world they are talking about.
All of Africa: right wing compared to America
Most of South America: right wing compared to America
Pretty much all of Asia: right wing compared to America
Middle East: lmao
Russia: lmao
Europe: about 70% right wing or similar to America with a handful of countries that might be considered left wing maybe but are sliding right as well.
The British Commonwealth: about the same as America except for the healthcare aspect.
Maybe you consider Antarctica left wing? Maybe the Oceans? Maybe the only part of the world that exists to these idiots are uber white Aryan nordic countries only? Or maybe you live in a fantasy dimension and are somehow communicating to us through a wormhole via Lemmy.
Europe is absolutely not as you describe. That’s what the media feeds you in North America.
I totally agree with you she must go, she’s part of the let’s maintain the status quo dems.
That’s a funny take. The former speaker of the house who hand selected her replacement and was the leader of the Democratic caucus for more than a decade, and you’re basically calling them a DINO
MAGA regularly calls Mitch McConnell a RINO. Why should we handle Nancy any differently?
Right, lol. I guess the other user thought they had me in some sort of gotcha moment.
You guys are so right, maga does it, that means it’s correct
/S
The centers of both parties are functionally allies, the power structure of the Democratic party despises the kind of progressive politics AOC and Bernie do far more than the Republicans they claim to oppose even when those Republicans are literal out in the open fascists. Chuck Shumer is exhibit A and will become a historical touchstone for discussions about how neoliberalism always in the end sets up the conditions for fascism and then pathetically collapses in the crucial moment of resistance against fascism.
Fuck that, both parties need to go, how many times has the Democratic party laughed in the face of Bernie as they blatantly undermined him?
No, I treat Republicans as an existential threat, which means I also logically see the entrenched power structures of the Democrats that are happy to lose to Republicans rather than evolve, as an existential threat.
Pelosi is a Democrat through and through, AOC and Bernie are Democrats because they have no choice in the status quo.
The progressives need a build a new party before we destroy the existing ones.
Says who?
Common sense.
Weak response, provide evidence that trying to reform the Democratic party is a better strategy.
They will not change their strategy, the organization is structurally incapable of it, how much more proof do you need?
Maga fundamentally changed the Republican Party but you’re saying the progressives are unable to do the same?
Why wouldn’t they be able to?
Because they weren’t afraid of change before we are “ready for it” like you are, which is the only reason the tea party worked. They were willing to tear everything down if it wasn’t working, and that made the rest of the Republican party blink.
Your strategy is exactly the kind of political pushback people like Shumer and Pelosi prefer, because it is strategically ineffectual at threatening their power.
Anyone who wants to exist under a non-fascist government?
The bi partisan police state and Military Industrial Complex existed before Trump ever took public office.
We are past that point already?
A fair point.
I would point, however, to that emphasizing the need to create a progressive party, rather than prioritizing the destruction of the now-castrated Dems.
The entrenched power structure is always going to narrativize a genuine alternative to the Democratic party as harsh toned leftists destroying things to destroy things, so if you are afraid of that in your rhetoric (even if you end up supporting more reform like policies in the end) you are already making it incredibly easy to be walked all over by people that resist all change.
No, the strategy is to go for the throat of the DNC and happily back off when they realize you aren’t messing around and give material concessions to the people they are supposed to represent. This is why the tea party was unfortunately successful, now is when the left does our version.
If that breaks the Democratic party in the process, that is their fault for building a house of cards indifferent to the suffering of people in the US.
So what? That does not negate the stated want.
Weird how evolution takes time.
Actually one of the biggest arguments in geology/evolutionary biology is whether evolution tends to be a slow, continous steady process or whether it happens in explosive spurts seperated by periods of little evolution.
There is abundant evidence that both happens, so your metaphor is tenous at best.
Yeah for sure AOC represent Democrats 😂😂😂. They are all behind her and sure will let her run for primary and win like they did with Bernie Sanders. LMAO
For all their preaching about the sanctity of democracy they seem willing to do anything to avoid ever having a democratic primary process. The hypocrisy is stunning.
How about repeatedly bringing up the flaws of First past the post voting every election cycle and then doing nothing to solve it in the blue states they control?
Did Bernie not run in the primary? I remember him having his ass handed to him in my state.
I phone banked for him on his 2 most possible runs. He’s way too old. AOC is the only half decent insider option in all of DC now.
After a lifetime of voting for the lesser evil to make the ship sink a little slower, voting blue from Kerry to Harris in the general after primarying for the most leftwing candidate available, and feeling dirty every time, either they can give me a candidate that isn’t actively choking as they fellate oligarch dick, or I’ll watch it all burn from home.
I guess from my perspective you still realised they were still the lesser of two evils. You are right the system is fucked and the Democrats did not do enough to change the status quo particularly in terms of correcting the wealth disparity we see now.
Let’s hope the US actually have a chance at another fair election with a candidate you deserve because as it looks right now everyday the current fascist regime that is Trump administration moves towards a future where you may not get that chance.
These are wildly opposite and anyone who says AOC isn’t a real representation of DNC must also find a more GOP aligned member, like Mike Johnson or Steve Scalise. They are despicable but not all-caps-tweets kind of despicable.
AOC is the only representation of the DNC. Hope she unseats Schumer, becomes leader of the democratic party, and down the line runs for President. She will be the best president America have had.
I do not hope she runs for President next time though, as my thoughts of Americans are very low, and i believe them to be too bigoted to vote for her yet. yet.
The parties are not the same, but they’re both brands owned by conservatives.
AOC and Bernie should just start their own party and drive the establishment democrats out if business.
I’m pushing for this every day. It’s our only way out of this.
What percentage of the American population are progressive? Please provide a reliable source for your information. And please don’t provide something nebulous and without meaning like “75% of Americans support random progressive policy”. Those polls show aggrement with a policy, not a desire to change current policy.
More than you’d think are progressive. But, I’m not claiming we need a progressive party - anything left of center is better than what the Democrats offer.
This is the crux of it, American’s have shown us time and again they are centrist/center left at best. These folks are so trapped in their ideological bubbles that they cannot fathom their extreme outlier position, small wonder that there is so much accelerationist language of late.
Compromise is taboo and so any candidate that has agitated inside the system for change ends up verboten.I don’t care how many people are progressive, at this point it’s the only thing i will vote for. I saw how the Democratic Party acted after losing, and i am talking about all of it, not just pathetic signs and admonishing people speaking truth to power. I will not vote for establishment again no matter what the options are.
I don’t care how many people are progressive, at this point it’s the only thing i will vote for.
Yeah, that’s about what I expect from Lemmy leftists.
AOC is not a good representation of the democrats. Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom are better reps for the party. With the things AOC values, it feels she only identifies as Democrat in order to be on the Democrat ballot. AOC has been touring with Bernie. Bernie doesn’t even identify with the Democratic Party, but still came dangerously close (according to the Dems) to being the elect instead of Biden back in 2019-2020. The Democratic Party did not like that. The dems want to keep the working class down. The republicans want to squash the working class and more into submission.
I think the people that align with the Democratic Party were feeling a lot of this between late 2019 - mid 2020.
Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom
Obama being a proponent of universal healthcare back in 2008, Biden a supporter of the Green New Deal, and Newsom part of a push for universal healthcare in Cali?
I don’t mean to say that any of this is enough. I don’t mean to say that the Dems aren’t dragging their fucking feet and 10 years too late on every goddamn issue; I’m not saying that the system is working or that we don’t need a new system.
But anyone who says that the two parties are the same or indistinguishable in terms of results or ideals is selling a crock of fascist-flavored shit. Apathy and non-participation benefits conservatives.
You’re screaming into the void here on Lemmy. All we have are tankies and teenagers that want Amazon two-day shipping on their “RevolutionTM” and are throwing a crying temper tantrum that the majority of the American public don’t agree with them.
So they bitch about the Dems who are the only ones actually trying to solve the problem for not doing it fast enough while they themselves do literally nothing to solve any actual problems and giving the Republicans, the party that is actually causing all the problems, a complete free pass.
The tankies are the toddler throwing a tantrum on the floor of a toy store. The Dems are their mom who isn’t buying them the Xbox game they want and the Republicans are the store owners hiking up the price of the game to make it unaffordable to all but the extremely wealthy. Their little baby brains can only think to whine and cry and blame their mom because they have no understanding of the reality behind, well… anything really.
So they bitch about the Dems who are the only ones actually trying to solve the problem for not doing it fast enough while they themselves do literally nothing to solve any actual problems and giving the Republicans, the party that is actually causing all the problems, a complete free pass.
I’ve been starting to suspect that they give MAGA a free pass because MAGA is just too powerful and scary for them.
Take on the Democrats, you get tons of sweet internet clout. Take on MAGA, you might disappear and end up in a prison in El Salvador.
Why put all that risk into punching up, when you can punch horizontally and still pretend you’re a revolutionary.
Thank you for your response. I don’t typically post comments on any social media because I feel it is not worth it. There is a movement growing in the USA rn, and most people on Social Media are not actively being a part of it. We can end the things that have happened. It will take time.
This is very refreshing to read.
You’re trying to talk sense to people of an extremist ‘comply or die’ style ideology here. Proper leftists have empathy enough for the well-being of their fellow humans and the planet we live on to recognize that simply burning everything to the ground benefits nobody. What we have in this place for the most part are keyboard commandos who wouldn’t have the first clue what to do in the event of a full societical collapse.
In a vacuum like this using the best and worst (dumbest?) example from each party.
But both parties as a whole serve the interest of capital. Their methods might be different. Their indirect/direct use of violence might be different. But they serve the same people with the same interest. AOC and Bernie are even saying that now. They’ve been criticizing the democratic party at all of their events.
Can the liberals stop pretending we can vote our way out of facism and please fucking join us on the left. Fucking please.
Fascism is here. Due process is gone. First amendment is gone. If you’re waiting to vote again you’re no different than someone in Russia thinking they can vote Putin out of power.
Grab a pitchfork (metaphorically speaking) and get organized.
Join PSL or DSA or anyone in your area resisting ICE. Now. Do it now.
Edit: For every downvote please comment with a different organization resisting ICE and organizing locally. Because if it’s just criticism of the groups that ARE resisting it’s not helping. Give people an alternative. I would LOVE people just listing groups that are resisting ICE in your area or nationally. Because that’s all I want.
Join PSL
Ah yes, “Palestinian genocide is bad but Ukrainian genocide is good”
Yeah when ICE is taking away my neighbors I always make sure to vet my resistance groups to make sure they have my same exact view on a conflict between two oligarch controlled nations. /s
I don’t agree with Anarchist groups politically. But I sure as hell will stand in solidarity with them against fascism. If you sit by looking for the “politically pure” form of resistance to fascism you will always sit on a “holier than thou” fence of Liberalism.
I don’t agree with PSL or DSA on everything. But what I do agree with is resisting ICE and fascism.
Are you doing something? Because maybe just talk to someone from PSL or DSA and actually just get info from the actual organizer’s. Not some sweaty dude on Twitter.
Just go talk to someone. But don’t just lie about an entire organization of people in a reddit comment and feel ok with watching more and more people getting black bagged.
I don’t care if it’s PSL, DSA, or your local anarchist bike gang. Just find something you can help with and resist. Stop making excuses because some sweaty Trotskyist like to be edgy on your timeline. Go outside.
When we resist fascism we can talk about the different degrees of being a leftist. But holy fuck this is not the time to do nothing.
Yeah when ICE is taking away my neighbors I always make sure to vet my resistance groups to make sure they have my same exact view on a conflict between two oligarch controlled nations. /s
Thanks for proving the point that you don’t give a shit about Ukrainian genocide.
But I sure as hell will stand in solidarity with them against fascism. If you sit by looking for the “politically pure” form of resistance to fascism you will always sit on a “holier than thou” fence of Liberalism.
God. The irony.
When we warned you that ICE was going to end up empowered by a Trump regime, what you lot said was “Liberals are too impure!”
Now you want infinite solidarity, when you were willing to offer none.
Thanks but no thanks, I’ll resist with a group that isn’t pro-genocide. Isn’t that, after all, what you lot were so insistent on?
Unlike you lot, though, if it comes down to me having a choice only between one of your shithead pro-genocide groups or the fascists, I will bite the bullet and support you.
But don’t expect me to come running to support putting bullets in the heads of Ukrainian civilians and kidnapping hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children because “Ukraine’s government is too right-wing, so it doesn’t matter!” Unless utter pro-genocide imperialist-supporting minority-murdering cunts like the PSL are the only realistic game in town, you’re getting 0 support from me.
I don’t care if it’s PSL, DSA, or your local anarchist bike gang. Just find something you can help with and resist. Stop making excuses because some sweaty Trotskyist like to be edgy on your timeline. Go outside.
What’s the PSL doing, again, other than posturing?
When we resist fascism we can talk about the different degrees of being a leftist. But holy fuck this is not the time to do nothing.
No, apparently the time to do nothing was when preventing fascism was at its easiest. Now that fascism has been handed all levers of power, we must resist, in suitably non-specific ways.
This is the response of someone with a false comfort in thinking they’ll come for you last. I said my peace.
If you’re not doing anything on the ground to resist ICE then you should. That’s my point.
I’m not gonna argue anything more than that. Name me an organization resisting ICE that you would advocate for. I’d love to list more names in the future. What organization can I list that doesn’t get labeled as a “Tankie” of “Muslim Terrorist” organization from you?
Please. Please give me a group I can list for people like you to go outside?
Please give people reading this comment thread an alternative. Please. Because otherwise your criticism helps no one.
I don’t care if it’s PSL, DSA, or a Harley Davidson motorcycle gang. If you’re not advocating FOR some form of resistance and only criticizing the ones that exist. You are supporting ICE in your inaction while asking others to be inactive as well.
This is the response of someone with a false comfort in thinking they’ll come for you last.
lmao
I’m not gonna argue anything more than that.
Clearly you did, though. You preferred to argue that Ukrainian genocide doesn’t matter because Ukraine is ‘oligarch controlled’. Presumably Palestinian genocide doesn’t matter since Hamas is also ‘oligarch controlled’. You also said that the position of a resistance group on genocide doesn’t matter - presumably this means you’re willing to unite with Zionists against American fascism? Or is solidarity only mandatory when it’s about ignoring the genocides you support?
Please. Please give me a group I can list for people like you to go outside?
I’m involved in local groups. They’re a bunch of ‘shitlibs’ to you lot, no doubt, but considering your primary form of praxis is ensuring that fascists get elected wherever and whenever you can, I’m not sure that your opinions really count for much.
List the organizations please. People would benefit from that. That’s all I’m trying to do in this comment thread. Im not gonna engage in your derailment and false comparisons.
Your criticism was of PSL. And my point is that people should go organize and actually learn from the people in these organizations. Your comment only serves to keep people from organizing. It doesn’t give an alternative. Give an alternative.
List the organizations please.
Unless I wanted to dox my location, that’d be unwise. I can, however, recommend your local scawwy Dem clubs for resources, as well as your local ACLU chapter for how to get involved in ways that are meaningful, even if no one throws a molotov cocktail (or pretends that they will, eventually, someday). And maybe you’ll meet up with folks you can make serious plans with in the process.
Or you can LARP and do nothing of substance to people who actually need your help in this trying time - legal, economic, and medical resources.
That’s all I’m trying to do in this comment thread. Im not gonna engage in your derailment and false comparisons.
Yeah, that’s what I thought. Your only conception of ‘solidarity’ is ‘everyone agrees with me and no one dissents; otherwise, I’ll support fascists’, and ‘Everything I say is objectively correct; I have no obligation to acknowledge anyone else’s viewpoint’.
But hey, at least you can continue being utterly ineffective just like the past 70 years of leftists in this country. Maybe, if we ever emerge from this fascist hellscape, you can kneecap the next leftist candidate that’s put forward for being insufficiently pure and murder a few million more minorities in the process. After all, they matter less than your need to feel pure, right?
That’s exactly the problem. I hate the Democrats as much as the Republicans, but the DSA is so full of tankies I want nothing to do with them either. There is literally no party in this country for people like me.
PSL is full of tankies. DSA, at least in my experience, is filled with idealists who don’t seem to connect ‘results’ with ‘actions’, but their heart is generally in the right place.
Their head, on the other hand, can lead them to bizarre choices like “Unendorsing AOC for being insufficiently pro-Palestine”
Her and Bernie have been insufficiently pro Palestine. To the degree of negligible support of the genocide. To the point of distancing themselves from Ilhan Omar. I think they rightfully know they made a mistake in an attempt to be strategic though. Which they are backtracking on now.
The reason these organizations (DSA/PSL) exist is to move politics to the left. If you criticize them for every attempt to do so. You are literally just contributing to the Ratchet Effect of US politics. That type of milk toast politics from “the left” in the democratic party did not prevent us from getting to where we are today.
The Democrats did everything to do exactly what you are advocating for and surprise surprise we are here in full out fascism today. Maybe try to listen to those a bit to the left of you. We literally warned that this centrist politics would end this way.
But somehow we’re being blamed for it. Even though at every turn the Democrats prevented Palestinian voices and ran on “building the wall”.
The reason these organizations (DSA/PSL) exist is to move politics to the left. If you criticize them for every attempt to do so. You are literally just contributing to the Ratchet Effect of US politics. That type of milk toast politics from “the left” in the democratic party did not prevent us from getting to where we are today.
Ah yes, moving politics to the left will really be served by turning on one of the leftmost and most pro-Palestine politicians currently in Congress.
The leftist urge to sabotage the left for being insufficiently left seems to be timeless. Keep putting fascists in power, I guess. It’s not like I can stop you. God knows I tried.
The Democrats did everything to do exactly what you are advocating for and surprise surprise we are here in full out fascism today. Maybe try to listen to those a bit to the left of you. We literally warned that this centrist politics would end this way.
What am I advocating for, again?
Keep accusing everyone who doesn’t think that electing fascists is left praxis of being neolibs. It’s all you lot have at this point.
These people are co-workers and collaborators. That’s why we don’t have universal healthcare or a green new deal. It’s why we have fascism.
I’m so fucking tired of this argument.
It’s the same fucking bullshit loop every goddamned time. Somebody will say that the two parties are “the same” clearly meaning "the same in [this] particular sense, and then the pedantic assholes will all come swooping in and start nattering on about how that’s completely wrong because they’re not absolutely 100% identical.
Here’s a fucking news flash for all you binaristic pinheads - there are more than two possibilities. We aren’t just limited to “they’re 100% the same” and “they’re not the same at all.” It’s not only possible but certain fact that they ARE the same in many, many ways, and the fact that they’re not the same in ALL ways doesn’t change that.
Anyone who can’t envision more than two diametrically opposed possibilities is a fucking moron, and I’m sick and tired of this argument being driven by fucking morons.
Example:
“Republicans are corrupt weasels.”
“Democrats are the same.”
I see only three options there. Either:
- You understand and admit that they mean “the same” in the sense of “also corrupt weasels.”
- You’re a liar
- You’re a moron.
If they are “the same in this particular sense” then use that language instead. In no other context do people use the phrase “these are the same” meaning “these have something in common.” I wouldn’t defend the phrase “Galas and Fijis are the same” because of their similarities any more or less than if I were to compare apples and oranges. I’d say they’re both apples or they’re both fruit or any number of specific descriptors that they actually share.
It seems to me that if people are using this language as you suggest then they should communicate more clearly, or, more likely, this isn’t what they mean.
Agreed.
The notion of “both sides are the same” is a leftist critique that points out how both parties were long ago bought out and captured by special interests. The people hammering on this idea are especially critical at how, during the 2024 election, when the Democratic establishment was faced with a choice between bowing down to Israel and mitigating full-blown fascism, they chose to bow down to to Israel, commit genocide, and embarrassingly hand yet another win to Trump. All for them sweet AIPAC dollars.
Sure, AOC, the democrat’s shining star of progressivism, has different policy positions than MTG, of the right’s most outward and frothing fascists, but talk about a low bar… It’s akin to saying “how can you say both parties are the exact same when one has a donkey mascot and one has an elephant? A donkey is not the same as an elephant - check and mate, tankie”
Weaselly bullshit.
“Both sides are the same” isn’t some fucking Leftist code that actually means some other thing. You meant what you goddamn said.
I think it’s also selfishness. These dumbasses are still comfortable in life and so refuse to take off their blinders.
Nowhere in history have things gotten better by simply waiting.
But because things aren’t bad for them it’s not a problem.
The ole “First They Came” in action.
It can be - certainly.
One of the basic dynamics of partisan politics, and one of the main reasons that parties decline, is that people wear a party label as a substitute for more meaningful action.
In this case, people who want to project an image of progressivism without actually doing anything practical to advance the cause adopt (or adopted - more so in the past) the “Democrat” label as a way to signal their progressivism. The fact that they wear the label is then folded into their self -image - they can be proud that they’re progressive, because after all, they’re Democrats, which proves it.
One problem though is that that only works as long as the Democrats are seen to be progressive. If they’re no longer seen that way, then by extension the party faithful are themselves no longer progressive either.
So effectively, a criticism of the party is a criticism of the individual, so they have a vested interest in defending the party from criticism.
I think it’s also selfishness. These dumbasses are still comfortable in life and so refuse to take off their blinders.
lol. lmao.
Nowhere in history have things gotten better by simply waiting.
Surprisingly, nowhere in history have things gotten better by refusing to do the bare minimum of preventing authoritarians from coming into power because you want to cosplay revolution, and then failing to even cosplay revolution after the authoritarians come in.
Agreed. Their progressive Renaissance is always just one presidency away, and they will perpetually sacrifice however many Palestinians it takes to bide themselves time.
In other words, they will keep throwing bodies into the blood machine that is the American political experiment in hopes of a progressive renewal that will never happen. There is no red line for them - that is, a point where they’d consider “damn, we are fucking shit up heavy for the whole world, and we have a duty to tear ourselves down”.
Lord.
