Nah, I don’t want any of them here honestly. The democrats have done some heinous shit too and seeing how hard a lot of the supposed “good” Americans defend them makes me not want any of them here. Not to mention we already have a housing crisis without that bullshit.
I can understand the tensions from the housing crisis, and I can also sympathise with not having a lot of personal sympathy for the Americans moving right now, who most likely won’t be refugees as such, but just people with the financial privilege and ability to choose where to emigrate.
But long-term, depending on how shitty the shit-show will get, there might be tent cities for persecuted Americans in the future, both for you and for us here in the EU (and, ironically, in Mexico, of course). You can say that you don’t like it, and you have every right to - but at least in my eyes, it’s an international duty to human rights when that point comes, and I, personally, won’t give a shit what people feel, then. The international community will have to take them in unless we want to follow the international trend of fascism and say “empathy is the problem” like Elon. (Even though I actually don’t think this would be about empathy, it’d be about upholding what remains of international standards, duties, laws and human rights, eventually with force if necessary)
It’ll be cathartic for me at least. But I’ve volunteered with CARE a bunch and as much as I talk a big game of anti American sentiment I’ll probably still sympathize with them and try to help them if it comes to that.
You’ll probably enjoy reading, or better, listening to, the Cuba chapter in World War Z, if you haven’t already. Lots of American refugee schadenfreude, and even some redemption, in it. As with all things WWZ, the audiobook reigns supreme.
As someone exploring emigration options, I just want someplace where I can work an honest job, respect a different culture and society and appreciate its willingness to give me a chance, and feel safe®.
I didn’t say anything about supposedly “good” Americans. My point was that the people staying here either can’t leave, or are trying to fight it, or they MAGA. It’s the MAGA people you should be worried about. They are the ones cheering the fascism on, and will start shooting first.
People downvoting you are failing to recognize that while we are a colony of the English throne and have germanic overlords on our money, the current colonization process by the USA is through capitalism, entertainment, and geopolitics.
Much of canadian resentment comes from the wearing away of our differences by sheer bulk of exposure exacerbated by the typical lack of awareness by colonizers of their own personal role in this damaging process and its effects, interpersonally.
Colonizers often deny their association with the process.
Oh maybe some visitors or US migrants understand intellectually. But culture is not very conscious behaviour, and the heroic individualism and assumptions of cultural supremacy that they bring will rankle most Canadians at some point.
This is just anti-immigrant sentiment disguised as anti-colonization rhetoric.
That said, I am curious about your thoughts. What if one thinks culture itself is just window dressing and don’t care? People who identify as part of an in-group and hate the out-groups are insufferable, and being attached to a regional culture is just a form of that, cultivating hatred for the ‘other’.
Admittedly, I dislike the very region of the US I live in and think the culture here is a combination of intellectually vacuous, sexually puritanical/traditionalist, and generally boring nonsense. I view the individuals who attach themselves to my local culture as kind of pathetic. My feelings towards them somewhat mirror Emil Cioran’s negative view of his own countrymen. I have no desire to spread this culture, I’d like to escape it: I’m functionally culture-less as one can be.
I’ve just been chronically too broke to escape. The election has lowered the bar for what I’m willing to put up with in my escape, but unfortunately so have my resources been somewhat lowered, slowing me down.
You are taking the discussion very personally. It’s an individualist complaint. You might be an awesome person and a great benefit to Canadian society. So if you immigrate here and overcome the baggage of being a colonizer citizen and cultural perspectives that are probably invisible to you, fukan a, congrats and welcome. You will be rare as a gem. Your response tells me you have a ways to go before decolonizing your mind. First you must acknowledge your inadvertent participation in the bullshit.
I keep seeing “don’t blame me” posts from USA folks who don’t want to take any responsibility for the society they live in… and they want to bring that attitude here!
As a Canadian I would not move to Bolivia, because our mining companies are neocolonial blights on their economy… unless I could be clearly employed mitigating that colonialism.
I apologize for the late response, I only use this account during breaks/lunch at work and I couldn’t help wanting to continue the conversation.
Your response tells me you have a ways to go before decolonizing your mind. First you must acknowledge your inadvertent participation in the bullshit.
I’m going to try some extra effort to internally translate what you probably mean and respond to that from both a personal and meta perspective starting with the personal if only to hear your thoughts on both and sate my curiosity:
On a personal level: I’d be willing to listen to any counter arguments of any ideological belief I hold. I thrive on challenging my own and other’s belief systems through discourse. Its a major reason why I spend time on Lemmy (and used to spend time on Reddit writing novelas in response to other novela sized posts). If one’s argument is compelling enough, I will change my views (and have had my views changed in the past via this very method.)
On a meta level: What I think would be unreasonable to expect of anyone is to tell them they must believe in anything in order to live somewhere outside of some very basic things. On a systemic level it would be authoritarian and draconian otherwise.
That said, if I were to interpret your words here less charitably, it sounds like almost like you are asking people to repent for the sin of having been born and raised in the US regardless in order to take refuge by going through a re-education program or something.
I keep seeing “don’t blame me” posts from USA folks who don’t want to take any responsibility for the society they live in… and they want to bring that attitude here!
Individuals are not responsible for the society they are born in and are raised in, regardless of context. People don’t even choose to be born in the first place, let alone where.
As a Canadian I would not move to Bolivia, because our mining companies are neocolonial blights on their economy… unless I could be clearly employed mitigating that colonialism.
Are you as a Canadian, directly responsible for the neocolonial blights in Bolivia because you are a Canadian citizen?
Are you as a Canadian, directly responsible for the neocolonial blights in Bolivia because you are a Canadian citizen?
More than 1/40,000,000th responsible, yes. Directly, I don’t think so, I’m not aware of investments in Canadian mining. My spouse’s pension plan may be investing there, because even though they have some ethical oversight, money, uh, finds a way.
“Direct” is a bit of a false dichotomy however. I benefit from those atrocities in various ways. I pay taxes, I use government services, and the CA government enables this neocolonialism. I work for clients who have done I-don’t-know-what, I use products that are cheap because of this exploitation, and I fail to track many details of the supply chain that would help me avoid participating.
More, I have not donated to miningwatch.ca for years, I haven’t written any letters to officials about it in decades, and I haven’t even been tracking news about the problem lately.
Given that those are all choices I have made, whether active or passive, I bear a little extra responsibility above the basic citizenship share, yes. It’s a lot less responsibility than the choice I made to have children, let’s say, but it is each individual’s to some degree. My life is full of such things. It’s not a burden! It’s the bitter irony of awareness, which is a blessing.
It’s also the basis for a civic mindset that will get us through the great filter.
TL;DR: you leave a wake as you pass through life, those ripples wash up somewhere
I think you believe I and other Canadians are saying no USA citizens should move to Canada. I have heard a few people mention this but it’s fringe.
Refugees in particular, and that has been mentioned in this thread, well we’re readying up for that like we always have. Active dinner table discussions about how to handle an influx of trans folk and other victims of fascism, beds available, resources for support, secrecy protocols, etc.
What has changed, though? A declaration of war, and yes it isn’t official but it feels surreal and inevitable at this point. I can’t stress this enough: Canada is on fucking edge and the threat is a complete elimination of identity, mass death and suffering, and generations of oppression and resistance.
You know, colonialism.
What I think would be unreasonable to expect of anyone is to tell them they must believe in anything in order to live somewhere outside of some very basic things. On a systemic level it would be authoritarian and draconian otherwise.
Oh, basic things like being in favour of a colonial outcome? So it sounds like you are suggesting we should welcome those who hold us in contempt by hiding behind ideology. “Oh you’re just overreacting” say the US centrists.
So yes, perhaps we should be screening immigrants for their position on our pending invasion. I’m not asserting that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if security protocols are enacted at borders.
What I am talking about is reception. How any US citizen moving here will have to deal with the social reality. After 100+ years of low level colonialism from the south, we have some attitudes that you will have to deal with.
it sounds like almost like you are asking people to repent for the sin of having been born and raised in the US regardless in order to take refuge by going through a re-education program or something.
lol well statistically a large number of US immigrants do believe in original sin. However I am pointing out that it will be difficult for someone who was raised in a highly individualistic culture to take responsibility for the society they come from, and for the beliefs they carry forward. So yeah, if you come to Canada, and pretend we are just as individualistic as the USA, you’re going to feel like a hero around all these meek and diminished folk. And that has been happening my whole life, “americans” who move here and talk down while acting convivial and take over all the little ponds they swim in. It’s a type. Usually professional or middle class. Often they are “fleeing” the States… but not really. I grew up with an influx of draft dodgers, and yeah, they were welcomed, but there were problems, and here’s the thing: they are often oblivious to the fundamental cultural differences.
So when I refer to ‘decolonize your mind’ that is something we are actively trying to do as average residents of Canada, as we draw a long running genocide to conclusion. It’s a common enough phrase that you can research it yourself, cf. Freire, Pedagogy of the Opressed and related ideas.
The sharp point of colonialism wielded in our direction from the south means we’ve had to put up with a lot of bullshit.
So, to clarify, if you move here as a refugee because you object to your government, but aren’t a direct victim yet, and call yourself a refugee, expect doubt. Expect irony as your privilege is obvious. Expect to prove you aren’t the enemy in spirit, and expect to do some work shedding the things that made your country the enemy.
This includes culture and attitudes that you aren’t aware of.
Individuals are not responsible for the society they are born in and are raised in, regardless of context. People don’t even choose to be born in the first place, let alone where.
That is just a bizarre conservative attitude that works well for neo-aristocracy goals. It’s destructive to other societies and we wish you wouldn’t export that unwelcome shit in your media and migrants.
So fucking tiring. The world is not black and white, yes we carry collective responsibility. It’s a matter of degrees, culture doesn’t just magically happen and society springs forth from culture. If Assata Shakur can take responsibility so can you.
I think you believe I and other Canadians are saying no USA citizens should move to Canada. I have heard a few people mention this but it’s fringe.
I never thought this, you made it clear that wasn’t your belief. No worries here.
So it sounds like you are suggesting we should welcome those who hold us in contempt by hiding behind ideology. “Oh you’re just overreacting” say the US centrists.
I’m not fan of centrists, but I don’t think requiring people to be leftwing to enter Canada would be good.
So yes, perhaps we should be screening immigrants for their position on our pending invasion. I’m not asserting that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if security protocols are enacted at borders.
I actually kind of think that would be a reasonable thing to ask. But of course I’ll admit it’d be likely impossible to verify. You’d at least filter out the most brazen rightwing US patriots.
I’ll even go so far as to say that in some level of my own fleeting suicidal ideation, I’ve thought about joining the Canadian military on the front line. And I’d be lying if I did not fantasize a little about seeking revenge on my “excompatriots”… quite directly via such a route. Specifically of the MAGA variety.
I’d probably be a bit more Sherman-esque in my attitude.
These MAGA people… they are simply no longer people I’m interested in empathizing with at virtually any level. My hatred of them is at an intensity that is almost certainly irrational and self destructive.
I’d bet there are many other Americans that feel very similarly.
lol well statistically a large number of US immigrants do believe in original sin. However I am pointing out that it will be difficult for someone who was raised in a highly individualistic culture to take responsibility for the society they come from, and for the beliefs they carry forward. So yeah, if you come to Canada, and pretend we are just as individualistic as the USA, you’re going to feel like a hero around all these meek and diminished folk. And that has been happening my whole life, “americans” who move here and talk down while acting convivial and take over all the little ponds they swim in. It’s a type. Usually professional or middle class. Often they are “fleeing” the States… but not really. I grew up with an influx of draft dodgers, and yeah, they were welcomed, but there were problems, and here’s the thing: they are often oblivious to the fundamental cultural differences.
The amount of self reported individualism in Canada vs the US is virtually identical. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2004/01/14/americans-and-canadians/ (under “Values: Similarities and Differences”) this is an old survey, but I would be doubtful the numbers have meaningfully shifted since.
But this is besides a far more interesting point for me that I really hope you will engage with.
That is just a bizarre conservative attitude that works well for neo-aristocracy goals. It’s destructive to other societies and we wish you wouldn’t export that unwelcome shit in your media and migrants.
And here is the most interesting element of the conversation and I’ll admit its almost a tangent. That said, I’m disagreeing in good faith.
Its not an “attitude” it is factual. Before you were born, did you get some kind of “create a character” prompt? Of course not.
It is sheer pure reality: no one chooses to even be here or anywhere for that matter. That would make no sense.
Nonetheless, to support the pressure to conform and serve a society that arguably as a collective has a far more significant culpability for one’s non-consentual existence as an individual I find as a sort of absurdity. Individuals should respect each other, but they owe nothing to the society (or parents) that birthed them, if anything society (and parents) owe them an unpayable and infinite debt.
Of course, I also don’t believe in free will, and that in of itself complicates my thoughts on these matters.
I know whenever I meet new people from a different country, the first thing we talk about is how they feel about the different political parties in their country, and they always feel super strongly positively about their government. If there’s one thing Americans traveling abroad just won’t shut up about, it is their good feelings about the American Democratic Party.
When we traveled out of the country for the 1st admin, we got treated with suspicion until we said truthfully we voted for the Democratic Party options.
To be clear: People were great until they (usually) guessed we were Canadian, then we’d get side-eye when they found out we weren’t.
The difference in land border crossing experience into Canada got more overall hostile the further into 2018-19.
We haven’t traveled like that since Covid. But I imagine voicing your distaste for fascism is required in polite circles now. Saying you voted Kamala and for the Dems is a good short-hand, even if you recognize they aren’t anywhere close to Perfect-Good.
Oh yeah, that side of it made perfect sense to me, like I said.
What the commenter was saying was a little bit different though. They said they, as a Canadian, were upset with the heinous nature of the Democratic party, and then they were sick of obnoxious Americans coming to their town and trying to defend the Democrats. And, also, there’s a housing crisis, and immigrants are making it worse.
If they’d said what you said, I would have been far less suspicious about what they were saying. They did switch after the fact to saying that they were sick of Americans who were using being Democrats as a shield against criticism of their country, which again makes good sense to me.
I thought about mounting a disagreement with the believability of this. Not about the obnoxious Americans – that I can wholeheartedly believe – but about your primary complaint being that the Democrats “have done some heinous shit” and then Americans come up to your town and what they want to talk about is defending Democrats. That is weird and makes no sense (not to mention the super smooth way of bringing up the housing crisis and blaming it on immigrants, I guess?).
But then I saw the rate of downvotes and said, oh, I’m not the only one who thinks this whole story is bizarre. Got it.
Look man I know you that it pisses you off. I understand. But look at this way. The ones that are coming are the one you want. Or at least I hope you want. If I could leave and keep my retirement I would.
It’s not unreasonable to prefer people from a country that isn’t trying to colonize you. Even ‘the good ones’ don’t get that, which illustrates the point.
It’s not comparable at all. Show me where Mexico has been economically and culturally colonizing the USA for a hundred years, and made it part of their culture.
US cultural ignorance about Canada and built-in arrogance is exhausting. Most of you folks just don’t get it, and this thread is a fine example.
We’ve been housing refugees from the USA for centuries, and getting the first bit of the next flood already. Them we take just fine. We’re good for that.
Your reasons for being unhappy aren’t completely unfounded. We get that. It just doesn’t change the fact that you’re wallowing in a Canadian brand of conservatism in response to our even stupider conservatism. It isn’t going to stop folks from rolling their eyes at the tone deafness or finding amusement at your microcosm of our own bullshit.
It’s clutching poo to your chest while complaining that we’re exporting our stinkier poo on your doorstep. Is ours stinkier? Sure, I’ll be the first to admit it and include our right leaning “liberal” party in that statement. It’s still poo.
Nah man fuck that noise, the point is not appealing to conservatives who want more Americans up here, and by not getting it really you just are proving the point: more Americans moving to Canada in a surge will mean shifting Canada’s overton window to the right, as even well intentioned democrats are conservatives here.
And I would happily say send us your lefties but you need them, and because if you don’t fix this now, we’re pretty sure you are going to invade.
Yes, yes. Fix our shit but don’t move away from the shit because it’s our fault for being born here. We’re statistically more likely to be right leaning than any Canadian because most of us don’t even know what the overton window is, let alone pay attention to world news. Those of us who consider ourselves left leaning don’t recognize that the rest of the world considers us conservative.
I understand the logic you are pushing. It is perfectly reasoned, bargain basement NIMBY xenophobia. It’s grounded in a kernel of truth, self-convinced that it is completely divorced from racism, and completely ignorant of being an active participant in the shift to the right that it is so concerned with.
You are not stupid. Unfortunately the slide to the right isn’t purely a function of stupidity.
A slide to the right that is anti-colonial, that says send us your refugees, that says keep your authoritarianism and individualism from ramping up the colonial takeover that has been under way for decades?
Conflating that with USA populism and xenophobia (and you implied racism ffs which is classic no-u bs) is just whining that the colonial people are not welcoming enough.
Most Canadians are fine with Americans moving here that aren’t enemies. The bar on trust has risen, so prove you aren’t a threat is the new rule. Don’t fucking blame us.
Man I knew this election was going to turn into Americans coming to Canada en mass and us having to deal with more fucking Americans.
Yeah, the people coming to Canada aren’t the ones you have to worry about.
the only way we’re getting in is if we agree to be construction workers, given the housing problems up there
Im an engineer, pretty sure I’d be fine.
Choo Choo!!
Nah, I don’t want any of them here honestly. The democrats have done some heinous shit too and seeing how hard a lot of the supposed “good” Americans defend them makes me not want any of them here. Not to mention we already have a housing crisis without that bullshit.
I can understand the tensions from the housing crisis, and I can also sympathise with not having a lot of personal sympathy for the Americans moving right now, who most likely won’t be refugees as such, but just people with the financial privilege and ability to choose where to emigrate.
But long-term, depending on how shitty the shit-show will get, there might be tent cities for persecuted Americans in the future, both for you and for us here in the EU (and, ironically, in Mexico, of course). You can say that you don’t like it, and you have every right to - but at least in my eyes, it’s an international duty to human rights when that point comes, and I, personally, won’t give a shit what people feel, then. The international community will have to take them in unless we want to follow the international trend of fascism and say “empathy is the problem” like Elon. (Even though I actually don’t think this would be about empathy, it’d be about upholding what remains of international standards, duties, laws and human rights, eventually with force if necessary)
deleted by creator
We have a long history of supporting refugees from the land of
the freewhite supremacy.Those folks aren’t colonizing us.
Personally i can’t wait to see spoiled fat Americans try to survive the conditions of a refugee camp.
It’ll be cathartic for me at least. But I’ve volunteered with CARE a bunch and as much as I talk a big game of anti American sentiment I’ll probably still sympathize with them and try to help them if it comes to that.
You’ll probably enjoy reading, or better, listening to, the Cuba chapter in World War Z, if you haven’t already. Lots of American refugee schadenfreude, and even some redemption, in it. As with all things WWZ, the audiobook reigns supreme.
As someone exploring emigration options, I just want someplace where I can work an honest job, respect a different culture and society and appreciate its willingness to give me a chance, and feel safe®.
I read that book when it first came out. Loved it.
It’s one of the best. Wish it could be made into a miniseries.
Yeah i know you’re right. But at least it would be funny in the beginning.
I’m an American who fucking loathes the democrats and hates the nazis here. I just want to move there to be there to be with my fiancée
Well that should be possible, especially if your fiancée is Canadian, and even more so when you are married.
I didn’t say anything about supposedly “good” Americans. My point was that the people staying here either can’t leave, or are trying to fight it, or they MAGA. It’s the MAGA people you should be worried about. They are the ones cheering the fascism on, and will start shooting first.
People downvoting you are failing to recognize that while we are a colony of the English throne and have germanic overlords on our money, the current colonization process by the USA is through capitalism, entertainment, and geopolitics.
Much of canadian resentment comes from the wearing away of our differences by sheer bulk of exposure exacerbated by the typical lack of awareness by colonizers of their own personal role in this damaging process and its effects, interpersonally.
Colonizers often deny their association with the process.
Oh maybe some visitors or US migrants understand intellectually. But culture is not very conscious behaviour, and the heroic individualism and assumptions of cultural supremacy that they bring will rankle most Canadians at some point.
Also take off yer fukan shoes in my house, eh!
This is just anti-immigrant sentiment disguised as anti-colonization rhetoric.
That said, I am curious about your thoughts. What if one thinks culture itself is just window dressing and don’t care? People who identify as part of an in-group and hate the out-groups are insufferable, and being attached to a regional culture is just a form of that, cultivating hatred for the ‘other’.
Admittedly, I dislike the very region of the US I live in and think the culture here is a combination of intellectually vacuous, sexually puritanical/traditionalist, and generally boring nonsense. I view the individuals who attach themselves to my local culture as kind of pathetic. My feelings towards them somewhat mirror Emil Cioran’s negative view of his own countrymen. I have no desire to spread this culture, I’d like to escape it: I’m functionally culture-less as one can be.
I’ve just been chronically too broke to escape. The election has lowered the bar for what I’m willing to put up with in my escape, but unfortunately so have my resources been somewhat lowered, slowing me down.
Your response is just a colonial perspective.
You are taking the discussion very personally. It’s an individualist complaint. You might be an awesome person and a great benefit to Canadian society. So if you immigrate here and overcome the baggage of being a colonizer citizen and cultural perspectives that are probably invisible to you, fukan a, congrats and welcome. You will be rare as a gem. Your response tells me you have a ways to go before decolonizing your mind. First you must acknowledge your inadvertent participation in the bullshit.
I keep seeing “don’t blame me” posts from USA folks who don’t want to take any responsibility for the society they live in… and they want to bring that attitude here!
As a Canadian I would not move to Bolivia, because our mining companies are neocolonial blights on their economy… unless I could be clearly employed mitigating that colonialism.
I apologize for the late response, I only use this account during breaks/lunch at work and I couldn’t help wanting to continue the conversation.
I’m going to try some extra effort to internally translate what you probably mean and respond to that from both a personal and meta perspective starting with the personal if only to hear your thoughts on both and sate my curiosity:
On a personal level: I’d be willing to listen to any counter arguments of any ideological belief I hold. I thrive on challenging my own and other’s belief systems through discourse. Its a major reason why I spend time on Lemmy (and used to spend time on Reddit writing novelas in response to other novela sized posts). If one’s argument is compelling enough, I will change my views (and have had my views changed in the past via this very method.)
On a meta level: What I think would be unreasonable to expect of anyone is to tell them they must believe in anything in order to live somewhere outside of some very basic things. On a systemic level it would be authoritarian and draconian otherwise.
That said, if I were to interpret your words here less charitably, it sounds like almost like you are asking people to repent for the sin of having been born and raised in the US regardless in order to take refuge by going through a re-education program or something.
Individuals are not responsible for the society they are born in and are raised in, regardless of context. People don’t even choose to be born in the first place, let alone where.
Are you as a Canadian, directly responsible for the neocolonial blights in Bolivia because you are a Canadian citizen?
More than 1/40,000,000th responsible, yes. Directly, I don’t think so, I’m not aware of investments in Canadian mining. My spouse’s pension plan may be investing there, because even though they have some ethical oversight, money, uh, finds a way.
“Direct” is a bit of a false dichotomy however. I benefit from those atrocities in various ways. I pay taxes, I use government services, and the CA government enables this neocolonialism. I work for clients who have done I-don’t-know-what, I use products that are cheap because of this exploitation, and I fail to track many details of the supply chain that would help me avoid participating.
More, I have not donated to miningwatch.ca for years, I haven’t written any letters to officials about it in decades, and I haven’t even been tracking news about the problem lately.
Given that those are all choices I have made, whether active or passive, I bear a little extra responsibility above the basic citizenship share, yes. It’s a lot less responsibility than the choice I made to have children, let’s say, but it is each individual’s to some degree. My life is full of such things. It’s not a burden! It’s the bitter irony of awareness, which is a blessing.
It’s also the basis for a civic mindset that will get us through the great filter.
TL;DR: you leave a wake as you pass through life, those ripples wash up somewhere
Ah, nice that you took the time.
I think you believe I and other Canadians are saying no USA citizens should move to Canada. I have heard a few people mention this but it’s fringe.
Refugees in particular, and that has been mentioned in this thread, well we’re readying up for that like we always have. Active dinner table discussions about how to handle an influx of trans folk and other victims of fascism, beds available, resources for support, secrecy protocols, etc.
What has changed, though? A declaration of war, and yes it isn’t official but it feels surreal and inevitable at this point. I can’t stress this enough: Canada is on fucking edge and the threat is a complete elimination of identity, mass death and suffering, and generations of oppression and resistance.
You know, colonialism.
Oh, basic things like being in favour of a colonial outcome? So it sounds like you are suggesting we should welcome those who hold us in contempt by hiding behind ideology. “Oh you’re just overreacting” say the US centrists.
So yes, perhaps we should be screening immigrants for their position on our pending invasion. I’m not asserting that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if security protocols are enacted at borders.
What I am talking about is reception. How any US citizen moving here will have to deal with the social reality. After 100+ years of low level colonialism from the south, we have some attitudes that you will have to deal with.
lol well statistically a large number of US immigrants do believe in original sin. However I am pointing out that it will be difficult for someone who was raised in a highly individualistic culture to take responsibility for the society they come from, and for the beliefs they carry forward. So yeah, if you come to Canada, and pretend we are just as individualistic as the USA, you’re going to feel like a hero around all these meek and diminished folk. And that has been happening my whole life, “americans” who move here and talk down while acting convivial and take over all the little ponds they swim in. It’s a type. Usually professional or middle class. Often they are “fleeing” the States… but not really. I grew up with an influx of draft dodgers, and yeah, they were welcomed, but there were problems, and here’s the thing: they are often oblivious to the fundamental cultural differences.
So when I refer to ‘decolonize your mind’ that is something we are actively trying to do as average residents of Canada, as we draw a long running genocide to conclusion. It’s a common enough phrase that you can research it yourself, cf. Freire, Pedagogy of the Opressed and related ideas.
The sharp point of colonialism wielded in our direction from the south means we’ve had to put up with a lot of bullshit.
So, to clarify, if you move here as a refugee because you object to your government, but aren’t a direct victim yet, and call yourself a refugee, expect doubt. Expect irony as your privilege is obvious. Expect to prove you aren’t the enemy in spirit, and expect to do some work shedding the things that made your country the enemy.
This includes culture and attitudes that you aren’t aware of.
That is just a bizarre conservative attitude that works well for neo-aristocracy goals. It’s destructive to other societies and we wish you wouldn’t export that unwelcome shit in your media and migrants.
So fucking tiring. The world is not black and white, yes we carry collective responsibility. It’s a matter of degrees, culture doesn’t just magically happen and society springs forth from culture. If Assata Shakur can take responsibility so can you.
I never thought this, you made it clear that wasn’t your belief. No worries here.
I’m not fan of centrists, but I don’t think requiring people to be leftwing to enter Canada would be good.
I actually kind of think that would be a reasonable thing to ask. But of course I’ll admit it’d be likely impossible to verify. You’d at least filter out the most brazen rightwing US patriots.
I’ll even go so far as to say that in some level of my own fleeting suicidal ideation, I’ve thought about joining the Canadian military on the front line. And I’d be lying if I did not fantasize a little about seeking revenge on my “excompatriots”… quite directly via such a route. Specifically of the MAGA variety.
I’d probably be a bit more Sherman-esque in my attitude.
These MAGA people… they are simply no longer people I’m interested in empathizing with at virtually any level. My hatred of them is at an intensity that is almost certainly irrational and self destructive.
I’d bet there are many other Americans that feel very similarly.
The amount of self reported individualism in Canada vs the US is virtually identical. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2004/01/14/americans-and-canadians/ (under “Values: Similarities and Differences”) this is an old survey, but I would be doubtful the numbers have meaningfully shifted since.
But this is besides a far more interesting point for me that I really hope you will engage with.
And here is the most interesting element of the conversation and I’ll admit its almost a tangent. That said, I’m disagreeing in good faith.
Its not an “attitude” it is factual. Before you were born, did you get some kind of “create a character” prompt? Of course not.
It is sheer pure reality: no one chooses to even be here or anywhere for that matter. That would make no sense.
Nonetheless, to support the pressure to conform and serve a society that arguably as a collective has a far more significant culpability for one’s non-consentual existence as an individual I find as a sort of absurdity. Individuals should respect each other, but they owe nothing to the society (or parents) that birthed them, if anything society (and parents) owe them an unpayable and infinite debt.
Of course, I also don’t believe in free will, and that in of itself complicates my thoughts on these matters.
I know whenever I meet new people from a different country, the first thing we talk about is how they feel about the different political parties in their country, and they always feel super strongly positively about their government. If there’s one thing Americans traveling abroad just won’t shut up about, it is their good feelings about the American Democratic Party.
When we traveled out of the country for the 1st admin, we got treated with suspicion until we said truthfully we voted for the Democratic Party options.
To be clear: People were great until they (usually) guessed we were Canadian, then we’d get side-eye when they found out we weren’t.
The difference in land border crossing experience into Canada got more overall hostile the further into 2018-19.
We haven’t traveled like that since Covid. But I imagine voicing your distaste for fascism is required in polite circles now. Saying you voted Kamala and for the Dems is a good short-hand, even if you recognize they aren’t anywhere close to Perfect-Good.
Oh yeah, that side of it made perfect sense to me, like I said.
What the commenter was saying was a little bit different though. They said they, as a Canadian, were upset with the heinous nature of the Democratic party, and then they were sick of obnoxious Americans coming to their town and trying to defend the Democrats. And, also, there’s a housing crisis, and immigrants are making it worse.
If they’d said what you said, I would have been far less suspicious about what they were saying. They did switch after the fact to saying that they were sick of Americans who were using being Democrats as a shield against criticism of their country, which again makes good sense to me.
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I thought about mounting a disagreement with the believability of this. Not about the obnoxious Americans – that I can wholeheartedly believe – but about your primary complaint being that the Democrats “have done some heinous shit” and then Americans come up to your town and what they want to talk about is defending Democrats. That is weird and makes no sense (not to mention the super smooth way of bringing up the housing crisis and blaming it on immigrants, I guess?).
But then I saw the rate of downvotes and said, oh, I’m not the only one who thinks this whole story is bizarre. Got it.
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Build a wall…
So… you view Americans like how the conservatives in the US view Mexicans?
🤔
Might wanna check your xenophobia
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Look man I know you that it pisses you off. I understand. But look at this way. The ones that are coming are the one you want. Or at least I hope you want. If I could leave and keep my retirement I would.
It’s not unreasonable to prefer people from a country that isn’t trying to colonize you. Even ‘the good ones’ don’t get that, which illustrates the point.
“Mexicans are invading our country!” -trump
You sound just like trump
It’s not comparable at all. Show me where Mexico has been economically and culturally colonizing the USA for a hundred years, and made it part of their culture.
US cultural ignorance about Canada and built-in arrogance is exhausting. Most of you folks just don’t get it, and this thread is a fine example.
We’ve been housing refugees from the USA for centuries, and getting the first bit of the next flood already. Them we take just fine. We’re good for that.
Your reasons for being unhappy aren’t completely unfounded. We get that. It just doesn’t change the fact that you’re wallowing in a Canadian brand of conservatism in response to our even stupider conservatism. It isn’t going to stop folks from rolling their eyes at the tone deafness or finding amusement at your microcosm of our own bullshit.
It’s clutching poo to your chest while complaining that we’re exporting our stinkier poo on your doorstep. Is ours stinkier? Sure, I’ll be the first to admit it and include our right leaning “liberal” party in that statement. It’s still poo.
Nah man fuck that noise, the point is not appealing to conservatives who want more Americans up here, and by not getting it really you just are proving the point: more Americans moving to Canada in a surge will mean shifting Canada’s overton window to the right, as even well intentioned democrats are conservatives here.
And I would happily say send us your lefties but you need them, and because if you don’t fix this now, we’re pretty sure you are going to invade.
Yes, yes. Fix our shit but don’t move away from the shit because it’s our fault for being born here. We’re statistically more likely to be right leaning than any Canadian because most of us don’t even know what the overton window is, let alone pay attention to world news. Those of us who consider ourselves left leaning don’t recognize that the rest of the world considers us conservative.
I understand the logic you are pushing. It is perfectly reasoned, bargain basement NIMBY xenophobia. It’s grounded in a kernel of truth, self-convinced that it is completely divorced from racism, and completely ignorant of being an active participant in the shift to the right that it is so concerned with.
You are not stupid. Unfortunately the slide to the right isn’t purely a function of stupidity.
A slide to the right that is anti-colonial, that says send us your refugees, that says keep your authoritarianism and individualism from ramping up the colonial takeover that has been under way for decades?
Conflating that with USA populism and xenophobia (and you implied racism ffs which is classic no-u bs) is just whining that the colonial people are not welcoming enough.
Most Canadians are fine with Americans moving here that aren’t enemies. The bar on trust has risen, so prove you aren’t a threat is the new rule. Don’t fucking blame us.
I’d argue the point, but you’re already preaching our southern border rhetoric perfectly.
Trying to colonize? Looks to me like we’ve already succeeded! :D
Well Americans cannot vote in Canadian elections unless they can obtain Canadian citizenship before election day.
Fortunately, it seems we’re sending our best.