- cross-posted to:
- foss@infosec.pub
- cross-posted to:
- foss@infosec.pub
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Ok after reading the article this is bullshit. It’s only because they are counting JavaScript and Typescript separately.
Typescript being that popular is great news onto itself.
We have different concept about what great news is.
Compiling to an interpreted high level language is crazy. I just refuse to believe we haven’t got a better solution to yet.
As someone who works with typescript daily, you’re not wrong. It’s an extremely overcomplicated glorified linter that tries and mostly succeeds in catching basic type errors. But it also provides false confidence when you concoct something that shows no errors but doesn’t behave how you expect.
Don’t worry, they’re planning JS0 and JSSugar (IIRC) so you’re forced to compile anyway :D
Were just waiting on WASM to be able to access the DOM APIs directly, and then all languages will be first class citizens on the web, and then RIP JavaScript.
Is that even a stated goal? I swear we’ve been waiting for that to exist for the better part of a decade. It would solve so many issues and comes up in every discussion about Javascript, yet the powers that be seem to have zero interest in pushing this forward.
Delphi will be back, baby.
That would be quite an amazing era to live in ahaha ! We can the start the work as a community to match the JavaScript Ecosystem by providing high quality primitives for developers. For that to happen developer UX has to improve though :) but I think WASM definitely has some future.
However to contrast my previous thoughts, I find it pretty sad that people want to move away from JS when we got thing like Bun & Demo 2.0 hitting their prime!
We got benchmarks, cross-runtime stdlib, better registeries, type safety, enough performance, extendability (with runtime plugins & API). I think were approchaing a TS/JS paradigm that’s pretty impressive I must admit.
Deno looks interesting.
But Bun choosing Zig makes me think their priorities are not my priorities. As of now, you choose Zig (a not-yet-stable language) because you want to learn Zig and make a neat side-project. Those are not my priorities. Zig offers no unique advantages other than neat new syntax.
Deno chose Rust, which, like Zig, is new, but Rust has reached 1.0 and offers a unique advantage with its safety features. I’m not saying anything about the greatness of Rust here, only that Rust does offer unique advantages, and Rust could be chosen because of general priorities.
Bun chose Zig and then worked backwards and formed their priorities around Zig. Deno formed their priorities and their priorities lead them to Rust.
That’s how I feel anyway.
I don’t think so - Javascript doesn’t have to ship its language runtime so it will always have a size advantage.
You don’t need a language runtime if your program has no runtime, right? A rust or C program is just the program, no runtime.
Well they still have runtimes, but yes they can be pretty minimal.
You’re still shipping a load of libraries that come for free with JS though, e.g. with Rust WASM string formatting and unicode support always ends up being annoyingly huge, and that’s built in to JS engines. There’s also collections (
Map,Set), etc.
Also some projects are using web assembly to make frontend python frameworks such as this one https://github.com/kkinder/puepy
Edit: wrong project
sorry js fans, but python is what an interpreted highlevel language should be
Thanks, AI.
who’s Al? Albert? Alfresco? Alfred?
Probably AI Pacino
Mr Dunkaccino himself
Bundy.
Yeah I really would love to use Python instead on JavaScript natively for the same use case.
Every time I open a js file from some project I have to tweak to use on my website, I get a brain aneurysm. that shit should never have been invented. python in the browser is the dream we are not allowed to have.
ps: I am just a hobbyist ! so take it lightly.
Idk, my only experience with python is that any app written in it doesn’t fucking work, throwing some esoteric error that has nothing to do with the error at hand and then me needing to look up what unholy specific version I need and manually setting up an environment for it. I dread the day when I’ll want to try some random project and yet again the only way to run it will be some shady ass python script.
JS is pure crack and has no right being the backbone of the web, but python is borderline unusable in my experience.
I avoid anything written in Python. It’s not the language at fault it’s the ease of entry so you get a lot of low quality software.
U are not wrong.
Dependency management is tough and often frustrating. Dealing with resolving dependency conflicts is unavoidable. This area is a constant focus of development, so could see improvements over time.
Some packages to keep an eye on:
pip & setuptools
pip-tools (specifically pip-compile)
https://pypi.org/project/pip-compile-multi/
poetry
Any others i’ve missed?
The new king on the block:
uv. It can do everythingpoetrydoes, while also using a standardpyproject.toml(no more weird^), and it’ll handle the Python version for you, so no faffing about with manually installing anything. Justuv syncand off you go!Downside: not compatible with virtualenvwrapper, as it’ll force its .venv in the local folder.
It’s also still under heavy development and breaking changes are still expected, but it’s already super nice to use.
Same guys (Astral) also made
ruffthe formatter/linter that they intend to eventually integrate intouv, IIRC.I’m running all my personal projects under
uvand am having a blast. It’s so fast.
Somebody should write a python to javascript transpiler for the web…
(please don’t actually do that)
There’s a Python WASM runtime, if you really want to run python in a browser for some reason…
Ooh, neat. There’s also puepy, which was linked further down in this thread. It’s really cool to see more WASM projects pop up.
Wasm feels like yet another bloat layer on top of the existing web mess :((
at least it’s not on top of js!
At least until it gets direct dom manipulation and multithreading…
Python’s major pro is its simple, straightforward syntax, which excels at data handling. This has made it popular with novices of all shades […]
For first-timer coders, Python is easier to learn, understand, and adapt than many low-level programming languages […]
Is python being easy to learn actually true? I can see it being easier than low-level programming. But there’s other alternatives like C# and Java that certainly seem much better and easier to me. Especially when you consider the ecosystem around only writing code.
Plus, the Python language is a steadfast feature in the desktop Linux software landscape. It’s preinstalled on most Linux distributions, boasts extensive library support, and can be used to fashion very cool (as well as very basic) Qt, GTK, and other toolkit UIs.
It’s certainly available, and more readily available on Linux. The whole v2 v3 mess was lackluster. But I guess preinstalled is convenient, and more accessible than installable Java or whatever.
I’ve never seen JavaScript or Python popularity as evidence or correlating with actual qualities. More with a self-promoting usage. Python was being used in science, then in AI, then AI became popular. To me, it seems like a natural propagation consequence more than simplicity or features over other frameworks and languages.
Is python being easy to learn actually true?
In my experience teaching C to non computer science students It should be. They struggle a lot with variable type and the strict syntax in general, tokenization , etc, but specially
;and{}. They are more visual so I think the forced identification of python helps and they can see to which block a line of code belongs and also it is easy to think one line one statement. When they forgot a semi-colon it is hard to explain that it became one logical line with the next one.Is python being easy to learn actually true?
I’ve never found this to be true, I think that’s partially because I don’t find Python to be very fun to write in, so I don’t enjoy it very much, so I don’t learn new things about it very quickly.
Yeesh on both counts.
As for data science using Python, something tells me that this has to do with memory heap capacities. I’m not sure about Python’s max memory heap, but Javascript through Node.js seems to have only 512MB. I’ve been using Node.js to deal with big datasets and my most recent experimentation stumbled across the need of loading 100 million numbers to the RAM: while my PC has a fair amount of physical RAM (12GB) and a great part of it was available, it’ll simply error when filling an array. I needed an additional parameter,
--max-old-space-size, so Node.js could deal with such amount of data. I didn’t try the same task with Python because I’m used to Javascript (yet I’m done some things in Python), but I wonder how much memory can Python hold until an error like “out of memory” happens, because ML models (for example, those hosted and served in HuggingFace) loads training weights with dozens of GBsI wonder how much memory can Python hold until an error like “out of memory” happens, because ML models (for example, those hosted and served in HuggingFace) loads training weights with dozens of GBs
All the stuff that’s LLM and the actual “serious” python libraries are implemented in C/C++ and only made accessible via python.
Which doesn’t directly answer the question of what the maximum is, in those cases, but it should be obvious that C/C++ have some good ways to deal with memory.
You can still do “traditional” memory management in python, or “memory aware programming” like, e.g. not trying to read a file in one piece, but reading and processing line by line.
And using C from python is actually very easy and convenient with ctypes. https://docs.python.org/3/library/ctypes.html
Snakes, why did it have to be snakes?
eeew (/s)
I have a dislike for both of them. Well, for JavaScript mainly the server-side part. I’m fine with it on web scripting, where it’s the only native one.
This plus Mojo has me feeling better about just wanting to stick to python. I gotta dable in go and rust because not everything is my project (thank God), but I can’t wait till performance python syntax is the norm
anything else > python > JS
That’s what happens when you suck balls at being a programming language. But sure go ahead and program your whatever device in Java or JavaScript. I’m sure it will help something.
What?
