“Jill Stein is a useful idiot for Russia. After parroting Kremlin talking points and being propped up by bad actors in 2016 she’s at it again,” DNC spokesman Matt Corridoni said in a statement to The Bulwark. “Jill Stein won’t become president, but her spoiler candidacy—that both the GOP and Putin have previously shown interest in—can help decide who wins. A vote for Stein is a vote for Trump.”
Stein’s campaign manager, Jason Call, said via email that “the Democratic Party has no respect for actual democracy or the voting public,” calling the attack a “tired and sad commentary on a party that refuses to serve the American people with good public policy.”
Yes, this is true.
“We’re seeing a desperate empire now. We are seeing a desperate colonialist settler empire whose ways of the world and whose control over the world has been lost,” Stein said as she inveighed against U.S. healthcare, housing, and military policy.
This is also true. But she has no shot at winning and is literally only capable of helping the orange bad. We need rank-choice voting. Until we get that, she should shut up and drop out. Especially with the threat of the orange bad.
Here you go again. Not you personally, but everyone who says that you’re either with us or against us. That didn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense now, it never will, and it won’t get Harris any more votes. If you don’t believe me, ask Hillary Clinton. Her supporters said the same thing, and then she lost. At some point you have to face the reality that people can and do vote for third-party candidates, and then you need to decide how you’re going to convince them that they ought to vote for your candidate, and usually that’s effective if your candidate has some policies that the voters appreciate. Or don’t try to get their votes and move on with life, that’s okay too.
But maybe you’re looking for someone to blame, in case Harris loses. You want to be able to blame those third-party voters. I’m not going to let you off the hook. If she throws away third party votes, she knew exactly what she was doing, she took the risk and it paid off or it didn’t.
But even if we ignore that, you’ve also forgotten that many people don’t live in swing states, and because of the electoral college, their vote probably is not going to impact the outcome. In that case, shouldn’t they feel free to vote how their conscience dictates? But of course you didn’t take this into account, because you didn’t think about their situation.
But let’s ignore the electoral college. Let’s assume that everyone is equal on Election Day, that all of our votes count for something. It’s well known that no one is asking for our vote the day after election day. As voters, we have power in the lead up to the election and in the election itself, if we have any power at all. But you want us to throw that away. Not only that, you keep repeating the same script every 4 years, which means we never have any power, and we never will, if we listen to you.
Obviously you personally did not write all of the arguments that I’m referring to above, but it’s important for people to deal with all of the above arguments if they’re arguing that third parties ought not exist or that nobody should even consider supporting them.
literally only capable of helping the orange bad
The folks voting Green have already folded on the other options. If you’re picking a fight with Jill, you’re only driving her base farther from your candidate.
The point is she doesn’t have a base. She’s never actually worked to get one. She comes out of the woodwork every 4 years to poke holes in the liberal candidate talking points and cause these rifts in the left. The people who vote for her are almost all independent voters who are “sick and tired of voting for the lesser of two evils”. Yet not one of those people will get up off their asses to push their local legislatures to enact ranked choice voting in order to provide an actual avenue for a third party candidate to get elected.
The point is she doesn’t have a base.
I’ve got perennial Green voters on my street. They’re in their 70s. The entire reason the Green Party exists stems from liberals who were burned out of the Carter/Clinton neoliberal turn during the Reagan Era.
She comes out of the woodwork every 4 years to poke holes in the liberal candidate talking points
We’ve had Democrats promising universal health care, public higher education, environmental protections, and global demilitarization for the last 50 years. She doesn’t have to poke holes, she simply sticks her fingers through the Swiss Cheese track record that half a century of corporate liberalism has created.
not one of those people will get up off their asses to push their local legislatures to enact ranked choice voting
That’s a flat out lie. The Greens and Libertarians are the only two significant activist forces for RCV, and state legislative races are some of the few spots where they can consistently win races. What’s more, these parties very often emerge from activist movements that are rejected by the ostensibly-friendly Big Two parties. Sierra Club produces Green voters in droves, not because they wouldn’t happily caucus with Democrats but because Democrats despise any kind of activist Green movement. Gun clubs and tax abolitionist groups churn out Libertarians for the same reason - mushy pro-cop/pro-war Republicans and Tax-and-Spend governors like Abbott and DeSantis drive libertarians nuts.
The singular reason why Democrats are terrified of the Green Party in this election is that it offers an outlet for all those disaffected Arab-American voters no longer welcome in the party. Its the same reason Republicans shat the bed over Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. They know they can’t deliver on their promises and keep their mega-donor funders happy, so they need to be the only voice in the room making these campaign pledges. Otherwise, people start testing the water with alternatives.
I’m tired of people being stupid. I’ve been tired of it for 20 God damn years. I’m folding on stupid people. I don’t care if I drive them away anymore.
I hear this from Trump voters all the fucking time. Are we really are just getting a choice between Red MAGA and Blue MAGA?
Blue MAGA is a lie created by tankies because they want Trump to win so Russia can better genocide Ukraine.
Blue MAGA is a lie
Harris’ conservative culture play
From camo hats to libertarian rhetoric, the Kamala Harris campaign is staking its claim to symbols of conservative identity.
I don’t give a single shit about Harris trying to appeal to the right wing. Good. She should be trying to appeal to the right wing because abstentionism on the left is evidently rampant. And I think that, because compromising is far better than allowing Trump to win.
You are actively creating the conditions for her to pursue this strategy, and criticizing her for pursuing it. Fuck you and everyone like you.
Want to change it? Set an outline of manageable policy points that you’d like to see her compromise on if she wants you to vote for her, and then make that popular. Abstentionism doesn’t work, idiot.
I don’t give a single shit about Harris trying to appeal to the right wing. Good. She should be trying to appeal to the right wing
The liberal two button problem
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Harris is only electable if she parrots fascist talking points.
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Harris is only electable if her progressive opponents are purged from the ticket
Damn. Sounding more and more like Trump’s attitude towards libertarians.
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This just isn’t true. Third party candidates put pressure on the duopoly candidates to adopt a diversity of policies that better represent the interests of the country.
If the democrats wanted to make the Green and PSL parties irrelevant this election, all they have to do is drop their unconditional support for Israel’s genocide.
Democrats desperately want to be able to run with status quo positions without risking a loss, and stein makes that just barely difficult enough as to go after her candidacy, because that’s easier than attacking her policy positions.
The Green party is already irrelevant. Their only power is siphoning away votes every 4 years. If they actually wanted to affect political change, they would establish a broad presence in local politics, establish a voting and policy record, and build a third party that’s actually viable as their local candidates advance to the national stage.
That takes a lot of time and a tonne of effort, though. Apparently it’s just easier taking money from Putin to gum up a presidential election.
What constitutes power to you, exactly?
A voting block big enough to spoil a victory is power: that’s what makes organizing of all types valuable to begin with.
Nobody, not even Jill Stein, believes she has a chance of winning against Harris and Trump. The reason why it’s still important for her to run is because she represents a dissenting group of voters who find something unacceptable about Harris and Trump, and if that group is enough of a threat then Harris will be forced to address it else risk loosing her campaign.
Liberals are mad because that threat is potentially big enough to spoil their victory, and that’s reason enough to be happy she’s around. Harris needs to cut her support of Israel, otherwise Green and PSL voters (and uncommitted voters) will remain a threat to her campaign. That’s reason enough for me to cheer them on.
Nope. Stein voters are lost voters. The Harris campaign will ignore them and move on. There is no message being broadcast or received during this election. Voting for a party that can only help install the worse of two evils is 100% a move of immense privilege, not a moral high ground.
They have the power to put a dictator in place by leveraging people who don’t understand the primaries are for your ideals and the main election is for strategy. Until we get ranked-choice voting (and we won’t) your moral posturing does the opposite of what you think. In reality anyway.
Stein voters are lost voters.
Then how is she stealing votes?
They have the power to put a dictator in place by leveraging people who don’t understand the primaries are for your ideals
Tell that to Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman. AIPAC money bombed them out of their seats by way of primary.
Who are their voters supposed to endorse in the general, now that they’ve been replaced by genocidal apartheidists?
If Stein was not in the running, some of her voters may have settled for Harris. As it is, she’s muddying the water. It’s not Harris’s fault a bunch of people are going to ignore the money trail and vote Stein. Harris is going to focus on the people who might be swayed.
As for Bush and Bowman, no argument. That was rotten & PACs need to die. Those two were doing something right for AIPAC to go after them.
If Stein was not in the running, some of her voters may have settled for Harris.
If Stein is forced off the ballot by partisan officials and heckled in the media as an antisemite, you’re going to scare away far more Harris-curious progressives than you attract hard-Green Jill fans.
As for Bush and Bowman, no argument. That was rotten & PACs need to die. Those two were doing something right for AIPAC to go after them.
All true, but now who do their base voters turn out for in the General? They same AIPAC swine that ousted them? Just because they have Ds after their names?
Or do they protest vote third party, to prove they still exist and don’t approve of either mainstream candidate?
If they’re “lost voters” as you say, then how is she muddying the water? You said it yourself that they weren’t going to be convinced to vote harris anyways.
They have the power to put a dictator in place
That’s power, bud, but it’s misplaced. It’s Harris that has the power to respond to those voters, or to ignore them. As you mentioned, the cost of ignoring them could put a dictator in place.
Their vote puts a dictator in place and Harris is the bad guy for not stroking their egos enough? Gotcha.
Giving voters what they want and winning them over is “stroking their egos” now? That’s such a cynical way to look at your fellow voting Americans. They are not your enemy.
Come on man… they got us pumping anti-democratic sentiment like it’s the divine right of kings… no fucking wonder the democrats don’t ever feel the need to run on actually popular policies and at least keep things centered. We’re more than happy to deep throat the boot either way.
Candidates get themselves elected by pledging to address voters’ concerns - if anyone has an ego here it’s Harris and liberals like yourself who think they are owed votes they haven’t made any effort to get.
The only reason Jill Stein has a chance to spoil this election is because we’ve got a large and rabid minority of voters who actually like what Trump is serving. If Trump were down 10 points in the Swing State polls, Jill Stein’s 1% wouldn’t matter. If Harris had 270 EVs worth of locked in states, Stein could take double digit vote counts in places like Oklahoma and California and still be a non-factor. But in this closely divided of an election, with the political system the USA has, your purity crusade will result in possibly the last election you ever get to vote in, and at minimum, 4 years of policy that will utterly destroy every priority you have.
And do you really think cutting support for Israel will gain more votes for Harris than it loses from people who happen to think Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself? Here’s a hint. It won’t. First, we are certain you’ll just find some other reason not to vote for Harris, and second, it’ll piss off moderate and conservative Jews and run them straight into the Republican’s arms. According to this article, there are somewhere around 3.6 million Jews nation-wide who vote for Democrats. In 2016, only 1.4 million people nation-wide voted for Jill Stein. If you only turned off half the Jewish vote while capturing every Stein voter there is, you’d still have a net negative, and I’m absolutely sure AIPAC would go apeshit over this (and they support Republicans too), and Stein voters would just find another reason they couldn’t possibly vote for the Democrats.
So, if you are really dumb enough to think a protest vote is a good idea, know that your meaningless protest will cost LGBTQ and minorities and non-Christians and women HERE in this country dearly, while doing absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians. It’ll also fuck the Ukrainians over, and maybe even the Taiwanese, as I can see the Shitgibbon leaving them to China’s tender mercies. Muslim voters who back Stein over Harris will own-goal themselves as they’ll be the first to be attacked by Project 2025 and Trumps Mass Deportation/“Remigration” plans. LGBTQ, Minority, and women Third Party voters will also bring their doom, while White, Male, and passable-as-Christian Third Party voters will benefit from their privilege but best get down to being Good Americans because the Trump Goon Squads will be set loose looking for Leftist rabble to round up.
The only reason Jill Stein has a chance to spoil this election is because we’ve got a large and rabid minority of voters who actually like what Trump is serving. If Trump were down 10 points in the Swing State polls, Jill Stein’s 1% wouldn’t matter. If Harris had 270 EVs worth of locked in states, Stein could take double digit vote counts in places like Oklahoma and California and still be a non-factor. But in this closely divided of an election, with the political system the USA has, your purity crusade will result in possibly the last election you ever get to vote in, and at minimum, 4 years of policy that will utterly destroy every priority you have.
And that means Harris must campaign to those voters and affirm their most wildly fascist opinions about minorities and immigrants?
What kills me is that I would be happy to discuss the ways in which MAGA actually does pose a danger to the republic, if not for the fact that Liberals will use it as a point of comparison for just how fascist of a candidate they themselves would still be willing to vote for, as if the act of voting is some twisted real-life game of “would you rather”.
According to this article, there are somewhere around 3.6 million Jews nation-wide who vote for Democrats. In 2016, only 1.4 million people nation-wide voted for Jill Stein. If you only turned off half the Jewish vote while capturing every Stein voter there is, you’d still have a net negative, and I’m absolutely sure AIPAC would go apeshit over this (and they support Republicans too), and Stein voters would just find another reason they couldn’t possibly vote for the Democrats.
A majority of americans support halting arms shipments to Israel. Harris would lose a lot fewer votes than you’re suggesting (especially while Trump is currently torpedoing his own campaign with antisemetic ramblings and accosiating himself with known neo-nazis), and would gain more than the Green votes you’re suggesting (because a lot of people will simply stay home rather than vote green because they feel completely disenfranchised by both parties). But setting the electoral math aside for a second: eligibility odds aren’t a valid defense of being complicit in the most public international genocide in recent memory.
So, if you are really dumb enough to think a protest vote is a good idea, know that your meaningless protest will cost LGBTQ and minorities and non-Christians and women HERE in this country dearly, while doing absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians
The democrats are already ceding ground to anti-LGBTQ and minority movements. Harris is already running on anti-immigrant and anti-asylum policy, she is already turning away from protecting LGBTQ rights in red states across the country, she is already fanning the flames of anti-Muslim sentiment. In pursuit of defeating a loud and obnoxious fascist, Liberals are actively affirming those fascist fears while abandoning minority and working class protections. They are proudly advertising themselves as the more pleasant fascists, the steady hand that will provide order to those who are afraid that immigrants are bringing drugs and weapons across the boarder to kill their children.
No, I do not believe that any of the groups you mentioned would be ‘safe’ with Harris in the white house, and I don’t think those fascist fears and violence will suddenly go away if we lightly affirm their legitimacy.
And that means Harris must campaign to those voters and affirm their most wildly fascist opinions about minorities and immigrants?
This poster wants you to believe that what Harris is doing to cater to the middle makes her equivalent to Trump. It does not. She’s trying to bring everyone to the table, and believes that not screaming to the high hills how Left she is is the best way to make Trump fail again in 2024. I do think she should go more like “Hey, Moderate Republicans. Thanks for your vote. Please, stay during this election, but after the Election is over, go back and fix your party. We’re not going to become Republican Lite over here for you. You need to fix your party so America can have two choices again,” but I won’t hold it against her if she doesn’t do that. I certainly don’t buy the notion that Harris is catering to Fascists, though…
What kills me is that I would be happy to discuss the ways in which MAGA actually does pose a danger to the republic, if not for the fact that Liberals will use it as a point of comparison for just how fascist of a candidate they themselves would still be willing to vote for, as if the act of voting is some twisted real-life game of “would you rather”.
This poster could go far by discussing how much MAGA poses a danger to the republic. Hell, it could also promise to hold Democrats accountable, by threatening primary opponents and reminding Dems that the only reason it voted Democrat this election was how dangerous MAGA is, but it doesn’t seem this poster wants to talk about that at all…
The democrats are already ceding ground to anti-LGBTQ and minority movements. Harris is already running on anti-immigrant and anti-asylum policy, she is already turning away from protecting LGBTQ rights in red states across the country, she is already fanning the flames of anti-Muslim sentiment. In pursuit of defeating a loud and obnoxious fascist, Liberals are actively affirming those fascist fears while abandoning minority and working class protections. They are proudly advertising themselves as the more pleasant fascists, the steady hand that will provide order to those who are afraid that immigrants are bringing drugs and weapons across the boarder to kill their children.
I can’t have a conversation with anyone who spouts this level of bullshit. Attention: Mods. I am specifically calling the above paragraph as bullshit, not the poster, so please don’t ban me under Rule 3. I won’t address what I think the poster is because of course, Rule 3 only allows me to call ideas and subjects of articles {expletive}, and while I do think some pointed expletives aimed at this poster and others is more than warranted, I’ll stick with pointing out the flaws in this poster’s reasoning.
This above paragraph is utter and complete bullshit. It is so far opposed to reality that I just can’t have a discussion with this poster if it believes this nonsense. This both-siders-bullshit is exactly the kind of Russian Propaganda that was peddled in 2016 to convince people to throw their votes to third parties. This included the IRA spreading propaganda to convince African Americans not to vote, creating 10 Youtube Channels, multiple Facebook channels, 571 videos, and more than 1.2 million followers in their attack on Black voters. I brought all the receipts for this, just check the hyperlinks above.
If this poster truly believes this, there’s no common ground for discussion here. Dear reader, keep in mind that this poster was preceded by posters just like it in 2016 confirmed to be IRA agents, who pushed very similar bullshit about Hillary Clinton that this poster and others like it are pushing today. If you don’t want to read the link, here’s some key numbers: 1017 videos posted over 17 channels, 3840 twitter accounts with 72 MILLION engagements across 1.4 million people, and 44 fake news Twitter accounts with 660k followers between them, peddling disinformation.
If you think this poster is on the right course, you’re as lost as it is, and you’re doing Putin’s dirty work for him. We can and do criticize Team Blue here, but there’s a difference between saying Dems aren’t liberal enough for some of our tastes and saying Dems are just as Fascist as the Republicans. I call that bullshit out here, and invite you to reconsider if you buy this bullshit or not.
PS: I’m glad to see that it seems like /r/politics on Reddit and most other forums on the Internet, save for the fever swamp of conspiracy theories, aren’t being filled with bullshit like this. I guess the moderators of most mainstream forums see this bullshit as Russian Propaganda and shut it down. So maybe I’m overestimating how much impact this bullshit has. Still, I want it to have ZERO impact, so a-countering I go. As much as the mods here will let me go, at least.
It is so far opposed to reality that I just can’t have a discussion with this poster if it believes this nonsense.
My pronouns are very publicly displayed in my displayname, you can fuck off with your intentional dehumanization. It seems like you’re going out of your way to not accuse me of illegitimacy directly, but you sure as hell seem content to imply I’m a russian asset, a bot, or both. While I appreciate your intentional avoidance of accusing me of those things to my face (not for a lack of clearly wishing you could without getting moderated), I’d appreciate it even more if you could resist the urge to speak to me/about me in the third person and refer to me as ‘it’.
If you think this poster is on the right course, you’re as lost as it is, and you’re doing Putin’s dirty work for him. We can and do criticize Team Blue here, but there’s a difference between saying Dems aren’t liberal enough for some of our tastes and saying Dems are just as Fascist as the Republicans. I call that bullshit out here, and invite you to reconsider if you buy this bullshit or not.
There’s a lot of accusations in this response, and I’m not willing to sift through them all individually, but I think I can easily address this one.
I’m not accusing the democrats of being ‘the same’ or ‘as bad’ as republicans. I’m not even accusing them of being fascist generally. What I am accusing them of is entertaining the fascistic and xenophobic fears of fascists in order to appease them. Of course this is a campaign strategy to beat Trump - that is not my objection. My point is that Trump is simply a symptom of a far deeper fascistic impulse that is growing within the American electorate, and affirming those anxieties (while abandoning any defense of minorities actively under threat, including Trans and Muslim Americans in order to ‘not alienate’ ““moderate”” voters (i feel gross even writing that in double scarequotes)) only fans those flames of fascism.
If you’re only concern is winning a single election against a loud and obnoxious fascist bafoon, go ahead and turn a blind-eye to the rhetoric the democrats are using in order to appease those “”“”“moderate”“”“” voters. But if you’re at all concerned about the growing fascist movement in the US, you would be wise to acknowledge concerning trend of democrats ceding political and rhetorical ground to the right. Legitimizing fascist fears and welcoming them into the democratic party isn’t going to help drive them away, and only a fool would think so.
PS: I’m glad to see that it seems like /r/politics on Reddit and most other forums on the Internet
Huh, what a strange place/moment to drop an advertisement for reddit. If you’re not a fan of federated social media, then you are more than welcome to fuck off back to Reddit.
edit: is this the reddit you think is so much better moderated and free from bots lol?
I remember when I turned 14.
I agree, but that doesn’t mean Jill Stein has a chance of winning or that she doesn’t help the orange bad.
Nobody said she has a chance of winning. She only helps “the orange bad” if you blame voters when a candidate loses rather than that candidate fucking around and finding out with their policy positions. We learned this with Hilary. You can’t just coerce people into voting for you by threatening them with the other guy.
all they have to do is drop their unconditional support for Israel’s genocide.
First off they are not unconditionally supporting the genocide. Both Biden and Harris are working for a ceasefire. The fact that Israel is not complying or even giving it any serious thought is because we have a plurality of people in this country who do unconditionally support Israel and will not vote for a party that does not actively show support for Israel. So if Biden or Harris actually came out and said they would stop providing weapons and money to Israel they would lose 10 times more votes than the number of people who are voting for Jill Stein because she’s being critical of them for “unconditional support of Israel’s genocide”.
If you are voting for Jill Stein because of the whole Israel issue. Then you deserve to lose all of the rights that get taken away if and when Trump wins. For reference see Roe versus Wade.
I remember arguing with several cons on various comment sections, and more than a a few, when made to answer the question, basically said the U.S. must support Israel no matter what. The no matter what part was true even after asking them hypotheticals about behavior including finding out they were carrying out actual genocide. This was before Gaza.
So when dingus lefties talk about “Genocide Joe”, my first thought is “I remember when I turned 14, too”. The cons - including donnie - would be far, far worse. The cons say we must support Israel. No. Matter. What. And it’s not because they give a damn about Jews, no matter how much crocodile tears they spill over “anti-Semitism”. Many of them think the Jews have to be there for their precious son of Yahweh to come back on a cloud or whatever, and start condemning Jews that won’t convert to infinite torture. While these people supposedly watch from heaven. Seriously, the “morals” of psychopaths…
They have not conditioned their lethal aid on anything, despite the fact that US law prohibits the sale or transfer of weapons to states engaged in war crimes. Even though it’s literally illegal for them to be sending them weapons still, they refuse to even suggest that stopping arms transfers is on the table. That’s a far cry from ‘working for a ceasefire’.
they would lose 10 times more votes than the number of people who are voting for Jill Stein because she’s being critical of them for “unconditional support of Israel’s genocide”.
A majority of Americans Say Biden Should Halt Weapons Shipments to Israel
Regardless, if a majority, or even an electorally-important minority of Americans wanted to nuke Iran, it would still be morally abhorrent to defend doing so simply because “if we don’t, the other guy will do it himself”. Americans love to pretend like they would have been anti-fascist rebels if they had lived in Nazi germany, but this is exactly how the Nazis were able to take power in the first place. Liberal moderates, desperate to hold on to power - or, more charitably, limit the power of fascists - will concede all but the most immediately tangible of human atrocities to fascists. They will happily hide behind their privilege and sacrifice the subjects of the fascists’ violence just so that they can remain at the table now completely taken over by fascists and fascist enablers.
Democrats don’t have to simply fall in line with what “”“”“the majority”“”“” of voters want; in fact, they themselves have been actively messaging and defending the very support you’re arguing they are powerless to resist. They were the ones making the case for continued support for Israel. They could be making the case that Israel must be brought to bear for their crimes, or at least sanctioned/embargoed until their hostilities and escalations stop. But they don’t - because they know that the US’s interests lie in ignoring the war crimes that Israel is committing. Without Israel, the US would lose influence in the ME, and by extension risk being cut off from the abundant resources that exist there to the waxing multi-polar influences that are building in the east.
Leftists don’t simply oppose the sale of arms to Israel simply because they’re committing genocide with them; we oppose the strategic imperialist asset Israel itself represents.
Then you deserve to lose all of the rights that get taken away if and when Trump wins.
Oops, your mask slipped a little there, friend.
lol…. This is what you actually believe?
If the democrats wanted to make the Green and PSL parties irrelevant this election, all they have to do is drop their unconditional support for Israel’s genocide.
There’s a lot more in the table than that. But it would be a good start.
Kamala doubling back on Fracking is driving off as many environmental voters as her endorsement of the Israeli genocide is scaring away Arab-Americans.
But that’s the joke. People think if Greens just vanished, all their voters would be forced into the Dem block. Instead, repeatedly calling them Trumpies means they’ll be that less likely to vote for you.
People get upset when you point to multiple things you’re looking to concessions on, otherwise yea, I’m 100% in agreement.
In an effort to meet those people halfway: Harris only needs enough of green/psl protest voters (or at least needs to not loose too-many democratic votes, depending on your philosophical bent) to win. How many voters that is, and which issues are the ones to win them to her ticket, are questions very much up for debate. Even if she can even win them back is questionable at this point.
But the one thing that is certain is that if she were to somehow loose despite everything that’s going right for her, it’ll be because she abandoned those issues in favor or courting anti-immigrant and status-quo republicans. Her loss will be 100% attributable to the fucks not given for the issues driving voters to third parties, and that’s nobodies fault but her own.
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Well said.
Sort of shocking how the common opinion here is, “vote how I tell you or you are a Hitler enabler”.
And then they wonder why they aren’t changing peoples minds.
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Yup! This exactly.
Any of the Stein shills want to explain to everyone why Trump (among many other awful people/companies/etc) attorney Jay Sekulow was representing The Green Party in their case against the State of Nevada?
Anyone?
Jill Stein wouldn’t say that Putin is a war criminal. You should really listen to how she dances stupid the interview with Medhi Hassan.
The fallout/optics from that blatant fear to speak clearly about Putin was bad enough it seems that she’s now made a follow-up statement to lightly say the phrase, with qualification (after checking with daddy) and associating it only with Syria and refusing to mention Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
The people who vote for her seem like the useful idiots to me, she herself more seems like a traitor to the old values of her country and the purported causes of her party. She loves foreign autocrat dictatorships and there’s nothing green about helping republicans win elections.
Yeah useful idiots are volunteers, she’s a paid collaborator.
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Jill Stein needs to go, condemning Putin should be the easiest thing in the world to do for any non-Russian.
Forget debates. I would pay good money to see an episode of Jeopardy with Harris, Stein, and Trump.
The categories could be content from a high school civics class.
“This person won the popular vote for President in 2016.”
Prepare for rant about the show being BIASED AGAINST ME and spreading FAKE NEWS by not accepting alternative FACTS.
How is this the first time me hearing this wonderful idea?
“I’ll take Jap Anus Relations for $200 Alex”
I’d much rather see them in a game show than a debate. Debates are pretty much boring game shows these days anyways.
@LorneMichaels We need this stat!
I doubt anyone dumb enough to vote for Stein are Harris voters anyway. So now than likely a vote for Stein will be one taken for Trump. So Trump and Putin can waste all the money they want on her campaign.
They’re probably trying to scoop up the Republican voters that are disillusioned with Trump and prevent them from going to Harris. It’s actually a decent strategy in that light.
♥️ by author (@drjillstein)
You know, positioning the DNC “against” her might draw some of the people who won’t vote for Harris but really don’t want to vote for Trump away from voting GOP…
You don’t have to be “smart” to vote for a good candidate.
Stein is the nominally “more liberal than the Democrats are willing to be” candidate. So most likely if they were forced to vote and could only vote for Trump or Harris, then I’d wager they’d mostly go Harris.
A relative weakness is that on the left there are currently more people ready to discard strategic thinking and stand on what they consider their absolute principles. The right is currently a bit more unified, as they are more willing to yield on their differences to vote closest to their overall goal with a decent chance to win.
Or the left is fairly unified in practice but Internet manipulations present the illusion otherwise, I have no idea
Or you could just reserve your opinion for who you are going to vote for, and respect the fact everyone is free to come to their own conclusion.
I’m voting for Harris, but it wouldnt offend me If someone said they were voting third party. The same as I wouldnt expect it to offend them I’m voting for Harris.
Y’all need to get off this good and evil Netflix drama.
What they ultimately do with their vote is their business, but I’m just responding to the premise that would-be Stein voters would not vote for Harris anyway, because they are “too dumb” to vote for Harris, which is incorrect.
As to discussing the strategic situation, I think that is important to reiterate the consequence of their vote. Stein will not win, it’s very obvious, so a vote thrown that way is merely a message to try to break the self fulfilling prophecy of third parties being hopeless. If you truly feel either candidate is roughly equal, this is a fine and strategic move. I could understand that perspective in most presidential races I have seen. Given the happenings associated with Trump’s first term, I personally can not understand that perspective, but ultimately it is their business.
To be quiet on this would be to let what seems to be forces looking to weaken the Harris prospect prevail in swaying people to vote for Stein, despite those forces not actually wanting Stein, but just wanting a spoiler candidate to take some votes the way they want.
First of all, blown way out of proportion. People voting for the green party are a very small number. What the democrat party doesnt want is any valid criticism of their party. That is detrimental because it could cause people to pull away from the democrats.
So instead of just acknowledging any good points the green party has, or at least arguing them in good faith, they throw mud on the party calling them a Russian controlled political party, which is hypocritical at best when AIPAC runs the democratic party.
Personally, I think the democrats would be better off acting in good faith rather than avoiding the topic and slandering the speakers.
If out of proportion in scale, back in 2000, Nader voters going for Gore would have decided the nation for everyone. Ultimately the choices of a few hundred people overcame over half a million votes going the other way. The very small number of Stein voters in a certain place can decide the output. I don’t fault them for 2000, even if I disagree with them, because I don’t think folks could have reasonably foreseen the warmongering that was to come.
If out of proportion in severity, between November 2020 and January 2021, you had several attempts to undermine the election, and that was with very little planning/prep work. You had trying to get the states to “find enough votes”, you had fake electors, trying to get the VP to unilaterally refuse the election, inciting a crowd to storm the proceedings. In the aftermath you have certain people planning their whole political careers on promising to guarantee the elections for GOP, speculation that Vance was picked carefully as someone willing to do what Pence wouldn’t, and a whole carefully constructed plan to start getting things ready for 2028 election the moment 2025 starts, if they can. You have a supreme court that ruled that a president may be considered immune for crimes, unless of course the supreme court decides it’s not an “official act”, reserving the ability to selectively enforce law on the president themselves.
With respect to Russian influence, this is specifically a Stein situation and plenty of evidence to support that Stein is being supported by and manipulated by Russia. It makes sense too, as Trump has shown himself to be awfully susceptible to Putin’s manipulation, so taking advantage of a naive Stein to foil the votes of naive voters in favor of Trump is a plain strategic path for them.
Yes, we can talk about her platform, particularly about her wish to dissolve NATO and stop support of Ukraine, but other parts of her platform are difficult to explain the nuance of the problems. Like “dump money on third world nations”, which sounds the decent thing to do, but historically trashes any semblance of local economy and frequently reinforces warlords instead of the people.
If your logic is that the green party is big enough to cover the difference between candidates votes, then I have bad news for you because so is my neighborhood, and yours, and the group of people at your local church, and the next one over, and so on. Thats the reason why I say its impact is overblown. If the democrats lose by a hundred thousand votes, its not the green parties fault even if they get a million votes.
The democrats need to appeal to voters, not throw shit. Apparently the democrat base right now likes when the campaign dives into the mud though, saying things like “its refreshing to hear” despite that being the exact same reason people were drawn to trump.
The only place I ever see/read anything at all about Jill Stein is on Lemmy.
a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump
It’s also… not a vote for Trump.
If Stein has 50% of Trump’s votes, Harris still wins, by a knockout.
then stop bitching and unfuck your electoral system
The propaganda has been on rapid fire lately, let me guess, they’re actually becoming a threat to the American establishment?
No, not a threat, the winner will be either Harris or Trump, but they could keep Harris from winning in key swing states.
Not our problem, we are not democrats. If Democrats lose it’s their own doing for continuing to shift their party to the right.
Not our problem, we are not democrats. If Democrats lose it’s their own doing for continuing to shift their party to the right.
With that the winner will be AIPAC and Netanyahu. People voting third party does not threaten the outcome of one of the established party as a whole, but it threatens the idea that doing what AIPAC wants is always good for a politician and going against it is always bad.
If too many voters decide to go against Democrats now because they are disgusted by the Democrats support for the many heinous atrocities committed by the Netanyahu government, it would force the Democrats to reevaluate that position and force AIPAC influence out, to regain credibility with the people.
The propaganda has been on rapid fire lately,
My thoughts exactly… Though I suspect we are not referring to the same people.
Fine, I’ll vote for a different 3rd party candidate. Clearly the DNC just wants to make sure we don’t vote for Stein and they don’t have an issue with anyone but Harris, right?
Fine, I’ll vote for a different 3rd party candidate.
You sound like a fucking child. Are you sure you’re old enough to vote?
Leave the Palestinian people out of your childish temper tantrum.
Look, another useful idiot
All these articles attacking Stein my make people not vote for her, but they aren’t going to convince anyone to vote for Harris.
If you don’t want Trump, you only have one choice.
I don’t want any cheerleader for genocide.
In what world has Trump done anything to suggest he’d support or push a ceasefire?
Harris has both said and done more to push for a ceasefire than literally every other candidate on the ballot.
There is no third party candidate that has a hope of winning right now, thus every vote for third party is the same as not voting.
And not voting is effectively the same as voting Republican, so you’re either voting for Harris, or you’re supporting Trump.
Where the hell did you see me say I would ever vote for Trump? Harris has not done a fucking thing to “push for a ceasefire”. The strongest thing she has said, as far as I know, is that she " wouldn’t be silent about what is going on in Gaza". The very next day, she published a letter condemning the people who protested Netanyahu’s visit. The dem party is full of outright and de facto Zionists, who preferred to have conservatives speak at their convention rather than Palestinian Americans. I’m not voting for, or supporting either Trump or Harris. Harris does still have time to win the votes of people like me. I hope you’re calling your dem reps and demanding it.
If you don’t think Trump would be even worse
forthan Harris in regards to Palestine, you’re delusional. Contrary to popular edgelord opinion the lesser evil is still better than the greater evil.I agree that she should be more clear on demanding a ceasefire (although she did actually partly demand just that in March, at least for 6 weeks - and again during the debate), and that this war could probably be stopped if she made such demands. The current US administration is working to end the fighting, so not voting for the party that is actually working to end the war is at the detriment to the people of Gaza.
US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said two weeks ago that 90 percent of a ceasefire deal had been agreed upon.
Washington has been working for months with mediators Qatar and Egypt to try and bring Israel and Hamas to a final agreement.
Biden laid out a three-phase ceasefire proposal on May 31 saying that Israel had agreed to it.
Now compare that to Trump:
“From the start, Harris has worked to tie Israel’s hand behind its back, demanding an immediate ceasefire, always demanding ceasefire,” Trump said, adding it “would only give Hamas time to regroup and launch a new October 7 style attack.” Trump added: “I will give Israel the support that it needs to win but I do want them to win fast.”
So he would basically allow a full scale genocide, no holds barred.
That being said though, this is likely not going to end anytime soon due to the massive pager/radio attack on Hezbollah that’s likely going to make this whole quagmire even worse. And I 100% agree with you that the US/Kamala/Biden should put Israel in it’s place before this whole powder keg turns into WWIII, which is not outside the realm of possibilities to anyone who has studied history and the role multiple global conflicts played in the past to lead to world war.
But she’s working night and day on a ceasefire deal…😂
Are you people allergic to good faith arguments?
No, but it seems like you people are.
They arent going to convince anyone to vote for Trump either, so what’s your point, comrade?
My point, comrade, is that all this desperate energy spent tearing down Jill Stein would be better spent changing the policies that are turning off potential dem voters.
Methinks perhaps you overstate the intensity and desperation of the energy, but your point is absolutely valid, and they should do that outside of election season too!
Going to add as well that the only party that might actually change those policies will be the dems, since the GOP SUPER won’t, and the green party has zero chance of gaining any power.
Well since you’ve said it - yeah the Dems have more political power. Which is why it would show leadership and political finesse for Dems to focus their messaging around policy changes that would enable a fairer and safer voting system that eliminates spoiler candidates, like approval choice voting. THAT would attract 3rd party voters. Because it includes them. Instead the messaging above alienates and divides people. It’s bad.
I actually don’t understand how we all collectively watched Whose Line? in the 90s and somehow still don’t understand the concept of “yes, and,” and including people’s concerns. If Dems want 3rd party voters, they will have to respect their concerns and not try to verbally abuse them, or use fear, obligation, guilt, or shame to emotionally abuse them.
And btw yes I’m voting for Kamala. But man watching Dems fumble EVERY ELECTION because they can’t let go of emotional manipulation and abuse rhetoric is so cringy.
Yeah watching the Dems is painful AF. They get real close to GETTING it and then fall back into their political safe zone. The 3rd party voters might not have the numbers, but they have good ideas for the future of the country that need to be considered.
We need more Bernies & AOCs on the inside to pull dems back (at least) toward centre and make them understand that 3rd party voters have some great ideas for bringing positive change and equity. Even if the Dems can’t fully embrace them, let’s nudge the needle back toward progress by paying attention to them. The Dems might do. The GOP won’t. So if there are only two viable parties in the presidential (and congressional) race there’s a clear choice if anyone really wants the opportunity to (frustratingly slowly) change anything for the better.
I always say it’s easier to shame dems into doing the right thing. The GOP have no shame to leverage.
Trump doesn’t care about Ukraine at all. What do you think of that?
I agree. This feels the similar to gerrymandering or restricting access to vote for minorities. They should be able to win without having to walk through a gutter.
Maybe she wouldn’t be so popular among Muslims if, you know, Dems weren’t erasing their existence. Just Sayian.
Dems weren’t erasing their existence.
There are legit criticisms of their support of Israel. . .but accusing dems of “erasing the existence of Muslims” is so detached from reality I’m not even sure how one would even begin to get one believing that to join the rest of us in the real world.
Yeah, but… you’re talking to a lemmy leftist. They’re not known for adhering to any standard of reality.
Would this be the same dems that provide wholehearted economic and military support too… just let me check my notes here… The House of Al Saud?
So hilarious! I too love parody! You nailed the ignorance and aversion to reality perfectly!
Dumbass. Erasing their existence. 50,000 people in Gaza are dead. 98% of Gaza is still alive. There are 2,000,000,000 Muslims in the world.
Oh no, 0.000025% of the world’s Muslims have been killed, in a warzone, in a war that their elected leaders started.
“OH NOES THERE BEING ERASED BY THE GREAT SATAN.”
Even though the entire world calls it a genocide but it’s not because they’re not all dead yet!
The entire world doesn’t call it a genocide.
In fact, most of the western world does not. Your own country, probably, does not.
It’s funny because if Democrats just did what people wanted in the first place people would vote for them
Which people?
You know, the people who want the same thing I want.
The single-issue Gaza voters who ignore everything else at stake besides Gaza.
It’s crazy to me that democrats use extreme language when speaking of the risks of middle eastern conflic escalating into Europe, but then dismiss it as an unimportant issue as soon as it’s pointed out that they are actively contributing to that escalation.
or maybe you are hyperbolizing and the truth is in the middle somewhere.
‘Hyperbolizing’ what, exactly? In the middle of what, exactly?
It would be easier to tell if you’re suggesting a false compromise if you were at all specific about what you’re talking about instead of making vague centrist gestures.
I’m referring to the two extreme positions you wrote. Not sure how that’s so vague, but I’ll spell it out for you anyway. I’m suggesting you presented two hyperbolized straw men in your comment above. Very few democrats, if any, do either of these:
use extreme language when speaking of the risks of middle eastern conflic escalating into Europe
dismiss it as an unimportant issue as soon as it’s pointed out that they are actively contributing to that escalation
the position “in the middle” that’s closer to reality is something like “It is a major conflict that has the potential to escalate, but it’s also not the only thing at stake in this election.” That isn’t a false compromise, that’s just how it is.
“It is a major conflict that has the potential to escalate, but it’s also not the only thing at stake in this election.”
Idk what to tell you, that’s a dismissal of the issue as unimportant, even if simply unimportant as compared to the other things you say are at stake.
Yes, genocide is such a wedge issue. Can’t they compromise on killing all the
JewsPalestinians?Pfft. What a way to twist my words. The single-issue people who constantly talk about voting third party over Gaza are going to be responsible for a Trump administration that will accelerate the genocide in Gaza. If any of these useful idiots actually gave a fuck about Gaza you’d work with the only viable party that could get a ceasefire to happen.
It’s also ignoring the severe harm a Trump administration will do to the American people. Sure, you voted third party so technically your hands are clean. But it’s also throwing women, people of colour, LGBTQ, and everyone else who isn’t a straight white male under the bus. It’s throwing everyone in Ukraine (who by the way, are ALSO being genocided. But fuck them, right?) under the bus by withdrawing support and there very likely won’t be another election in 4 years to get those progressive policies you want so bad from the Dems if Trump wins.
There is far more at stake than just Gaza. Get your heads out of your asses. If your third party nonsense helps Trump win then you’re just as responsible for the deaths of countless Palestinians.
Sure, you voted third party so technically your hands are clean.
If voting for Democrats makes you complicit, then the net is cast so broad that their hands are absolutely not clean either. If they are supporting the state in any way, such as by paying taxes, then they too are “complicit” in much the same way.
It’s a vanity vote. That’s it. It allows them to pretend they are morally superior, without actually having to do anything.
Leftists, obviously. The people they pay lip service to and then fuck over. The whole reason people vote for the green party in the first place.
