- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
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the pairing restriction would “undermine the security, safety, and privacy of Oregonians by forcing device manufacturers to allow the use of parts of unknown origin in consumer devices.”
If only there were options that would encourage the use of safe, genuine parts.
What, like companies selling high quality, reasonably priced parts?
My favorite part of the MN right to repair bill is that it requires OEM parts/software/schematics to be offered to consumers at the lowest possible price, including any rebates, sales, deals, etc. It’s not quite an “at cost” situation, but it’s probably about as close as you can get without crossing that line
It sounds good, but that’s enough wiggle room to drive a truck full of money through. Even “at cost” has been abused pretty badly.
Yea, I agree. I think these bills should require the maximum cost to be cost of manufacture at the date of engineering; i.e. a part designed in 2008 can not cost more than the materials to make it and it must keep that price for as long as it is used.
But progress is progress, we’ll get there eventually as long as we keep up the political pressure.
Edit: please read the spirit in that example rather than to the letter. There’s a lot of nuance that I just skimmed over, and that’s because I don’t want to write the bill.
The issue with that is it leaves no room for paying the engineers who actually designed the device. The cost of designing the parts is really expensive. I have no issue with a small markup. I definitely agree though that the costs shouldn’t be so absurdly prohibitive to repair though.
Don’t forget the actual cost of manufacturing. The building, the workers, the people working behind the scenes on finance or logistics, or manufacturing details…etc
Manufacturing takes a lot of people on a lot of different levels not only to get it up and running but to keep it running and that’s expensive.
Tooling for manufacturing is also insanely expensive
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I think that it would still leave room for engineers to be paid a living wage. After all they aren’t getting paid for designing parts, they’re getting paid to design a product made of interoperable parts
Even better. I thought we were just talking about the cost to provide the repair information, which should be free after so many years of shenanigans.
Good points about parts cost/availability. Hopefully ORs bill keeps costs down with the threat of competition.
That’s what the auto industry does. They have to sell you access to their system to allow third parties to program modules, but that cost can be excessive, especially if a small shop only needs to program one module in a blue moon.
I was actually thinking about OBD2 when I wrote that. The old CRT pedestal style code readers cost as much as a new car, fairly reasonable from an automakers perspective but expensive enough to put plenty of small shops out of business.
It was one of the first big top-down push that I remember. It’s a pretty good parallel for the current right to repair legislation. The automakers fought it tooth and nail back then too. They made similar claims about their new cars being so complex that they simply had to be serviced at the dealerships. And, to your point, they are still getting away with it to a degree.
The “undermine the security, safety, and privacy of Oregonians by forcing device manufacturers to allow the use of parts of unknown origin in consumer devices” line is the same reasoning used by AT&T back in the old days as to why you couldn’t buy your own phone or use a dial-up modem.
like a fucking replacement display could spy on you…
Parts pairing is prohibited only on devices sold in 2025 and later. And there are carve-outs for certain kinds of electronics and devices, including video game consoles, medical devices, HVAC systems, motor vehicles, and—as with other states—“electric toothbrushes.”
What’s a good-faith argument for exempting these devices? Or was it simply successful lobbying in protecting corporate interests.
I could see an argument about medical devices, HVAC, and vehicles… But I don’t think I’d agree with them. Except maybe medical.
Consoles and toothbrushes though? What the fuck?
I guess console because they want the whole thing intact to enforce DRM?
Exactly.
I don’t see any argument for vehicles, tbh. HVAC tinkering is almost exclusively high voltage so that makes just a little sense, don’t want people swapping a 350 volt AC capacitor with a 250 volt DC capacitor and having it blow up, but Vehicles means a manufacturer can do everything imaginable to limit part availability and kill aftermarket parts purely for profits.
I do for things like ECUs that are programmed to the vin to prevent theft or tampering that would allow an attack vector for the vehicle.
Vehicles need it because the keyless entry radio needs to pair with the engine start. Otherwise a thief can steel a car in a few minutes by bringing their own computers.
I guarantee you keyless start cars aren’t more secure because of paired parts. The encryption for the fob’s signal isn’t the result of a paired part.
Particularly as a lot of newer thefts just use an amplifier to boost the key signal, and fake the key being in the car. Part pairing wouldn’t help at all there.
Define more secure. More secure than what? A non-keyless entry car of the same year and model? A car from ten years ago that doesn’t have parts and modules that do a handshake and will immobilize the vehicle if the system is tampered with?
I’m not arguing that it is more secure. That’s what others said. I’m arguing it is a non-factor in security. Nearly unbreakable encryption methods exist without any reliance on physical part-pairing. The only benefit from it is the manufacturer profiting more off of it as users become more reliant on the manufacturer in case of device failure and replacement.
I think the immobilization is key here and not something I would trust from any third party. If a third party has access to the encryption method, so does a hacker with the right tools.
Additionally, it’s configured to the VIN specifically so you can’t steal or buy genuine parts with a key you have access to and swap them into a vehicle that those parts don’t belong to. Chop shops have the ability to do this in the event that these modules aren’t configured properly and don’t require the right validation from other modules.
Otherwise a thief can steel a car in a few minutes by bringing their own computers.
…you mean like they do currently?
Which is why manufactures are now putting those pairs in so you cannot do that anymore.
If the security was so bad that removing part pairing would crash this, then it wasn’t secure to begin with. Same argument as apple pairing the fingerprint sensor, the emsensor is only doing the reading, not the authentication.
They’re right though. The security in newer cars and anti-theft features require that a couple of different modules talk to and validate each other. That’s how it’s designed to work to prevent theft or hacking. When your ECU talks to your keyless entry module or what have you they perform a handshake. That ECU and keyless entry module talk to the vehicle’s starting system to validate that yes the correct key at the correct range is being used to send the signal to start the vehicle.
You don’t have to have paired parts for secure authentication. You just need parts that have been set up and authenticated beforehand. That is not the same as part pairing.
What’s to stop me from going to a junk yard, paying for a key and the modules in question, attaching them to a different car and stealing that car?
Again, if you’re so deep in the car that this matters, this is not the part that’s going to stop you, unless the car is so poorly built that the keyless entry module is readily available without taking apart the entire car. This is a non-problem.
It isn’t just one module. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. There’s a handshake. So replacing the Electronics control module or the Powertrain control module those modules have to be configured to the Vin. In my mother’s escape the PCM is in the wheel well behind a liner held in by plastic clips. None of those parts can be replaced without being configured to the VIN.
As for poorly designed cars, yeah. They’ve been making them for years and security has been evolving. Doesn’t mean we should set ourselves back in that arena because Joe wants to swap out his PCM with one from the junk yard.
CAN network injection can be achieved through the headlight well on some cars.
https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/18/vehicle-headlight-can-bus-injection-theft-method-update/
Good thing part pairing doesn’t exist for the Switch.
Mine is the Ship of Theseus at that point.
For toothbrushes, are they worried repair won’t re-seal it effectively so make it unsuitable for use in the wet environment?
I hope you’re right and this isn’t about them getting ready to DRM brush handles to brush heads. Sonicare brush heads are ridiculously overpriced compared to the knock offs
Which is dumb, because there’s nothing stopping anyone from replacing the seals/glue when they put it back together. And at least in the USA manufactures have been covered for damages/harm resulting from a flawed consumer-based repair since since 1975.
Even HVAC, WTF?
I mean, I don’t want the thing supplying the air I’m breathing to accidentally not burn all the gas and lead to carbon monoxide poisoning etc… Things like the ductwork and shit, for sure, but not like, a burner.
The great irony is it’s frequently the “ductwork” that’s the problem: plugged or badly installed exhaust pipes, which the manufacture has no control over. The rest are the appliance itself wearing out or failing with no warning.
I’ve repaired furnaces myself several times including replacing burners and exhaust fans – it isn’t rocket science. It’s no different than working on any other “dangerous” thing like a car. If someone somehow manages to fuck up so badly it hurts or kills someone that’s on them.
Yeah that’s totally valid. Agreed.
But I also wouldn’t really trust third party parts for the appliance itself. I think once you do, that immediately becomes a possible problem. If it was in my house, I’d only buy from the manufacturer for something like that.
But on the other hand, Idk that it’s necessarily wrong to legislate forcing these companies to allow it. I generally believe consumers should have the option on their own, but some things are too dangerous. I’d pretty much be against medical devices but HVAC is a little more uncertain to me.
So you want to be stuck with the same thermostat forever? Imagine it comes with one of those Amazon ones with a persistent camera and microphone in it that you can’t opt out of.
A thermostat doesn’t have refrigerants/gasses in them. It’s nothing more than a complicated on off switch
Yet, a WiFi thermostat that stops getting updates is an extreme risk to that system if an attacker can access it. They could easily create a situation that causes a fire or a gas leak.
Proof or GTFO
What… The… Fuck?
If your thermostat could cause a fire or gas leak, your HVAC system is flawed. This is entirely a fabricated concern. If anything, I’d chalk it up as reasons why maybe right to repair the HVAC isn’t a great idea. A properly setup HVAC wont let anything tell it to do that.
Firstly, I said this one was iffy to me.
Second, the subtopic was HVAC and thermostats are like, the electronics that control the HVAC which I wouldn’t even really necessarily bucket into HVAC. It’s like HVAC adjacent.
Third, this whole topic is about right to repair, not right to replace. So the on topic argument is “you want to be able to repair the same thermostat with off brand parts”, to which I say, yes? Probably? I don’t see how that’s a problem.
And fourth, who the fuck would buy an Amazon thermostat, lmao.
It’s about parts pairing. HVAC companies could pair the thermostat to the system and you wouldn’t be able to replace it with one of your choosing. People are buying smart TVs with Amazon and Google crap in them that came be removed or even bypassed in certain cases. Google owns nest, the most popular smart thermostat brand. Amazon has their own smart thermostat. People wouldn’t think twice about having that included with their new HVAC system. It would be a selling point, just like smart TVs and all the other crap out there that will stop getting updates in 5 years.
That’s more “device” pairing than “parts” pairing. The thermostat to HVAC communication is a standard. Sure, if someone started forcing that, that’d be bad. But that’s more akin to Apple’s “iOS only works with MacBooks” type shit with Airdrop and such than it is to their “you can’t replace the camera in your phone unless it’s from us”. They’re both problems, but the one you’re describing is both not happening and a different issue. I’m not saying it won’t happen but it’s a different topic.
You need some sort of licensing to do most HVAC work anyways. Theres no point in forcing companies to make all the parts available to the average joe when the average joe can’t legally do the work anyways.
The goal of the bill was to get something with teeth passed. Fighting every lobby at once would be impossible, so they leave those devices out of it and will now be able to work on different laws for those things. At least that’s what I read they’re doing for the John Deere stuff at least. The legislators know it’s going to be a difficult battle, so they segmented the law to make it so that a failure in one spot wouldn’t cause a loss everywhere.
Heh. Teeth.
GET FUCKED VOLKSWAGEN YOU COCKSUCKERS
Motor vehicles are exempt and the law doesn’t affect anything until 2025.
Oh for fucks sake
You didn’t think the law was for you/us, did you?
Lol, of course.
… MOTHERFUCKER. Just can’t have anything fuckin nice.
Wait, what’s wrong with VW?
VW does parts pairing. It resulted in me having to get a new vehicle when my steering wheel controls and air ag stopped functioning. Turns out you have to program the clockspring with the old clockspring and bringing it to VW resulted in a 350$ charge for them to say “we can’t fix this”.
Fuck VW.
Dealerships are literally the worst place to take a vehicle for a repair. They are in the car selling business, not the car fixing business.
I brought it there after bringing it to my preferred auto shop. Guy did everything in the book with me there and told “yeah sorry man, you’re gonna have to bring it to VW” after we watched the programmer failed multiple times.
This isn’t necessarily the case anymore. They realized they could charge more money after all this parts pairing and proprietary stuff started.
Dealerships can make more money from repairs than selling. Especially if sales margin is lower due to online competitors selling cars cheaper.
This bill attacks one of the things preventing cheaper repairs and shops from helping .
I asked about a quote to fix my older car (not VW), and they said it would take 30 days in the shop… To be fair, the part in question has the odometer data, but surely they can just pull the part, transfer the data, re-install, and they’re done. Should take less than a week…
They typically send those off to a third party. You can usually find those services on eBay. You pull your old cluster and they transfer the data. There’s other ways to do it too, but that’s the typical way of doing it. Personally, I have a used cluster in my car with the incorrect mileage. My state doesn’t record mileage when you transfer the title, so I just need to disclose to whoever I sell it to that the mileage is not correct.
Yeah, apparently that’s the case here too, and I’ll be going that route. I just thought it was ridiculous that I’d have to leave the there for a month and probably pay like $1k. Surely they have the equipment to do the transfer, no?
No, they don’t usually want to mess with odometers because of the liability. I think most manufacturers require that the cluster is sent to them in order to verify the correct mileage and then program a new one. There’s aftermarket tools for doing it on some models, others you can just dump an eprom with a cheap programmer, it just depends really.
HP screaming
The law, like those passed in New York, California, and Minnesota, will require many manufacturers to provide the same parts, tools, and documentation to individuals and repair shops that they provide to their own repair teams.
I’m sensing downsizing of “repair teams” in the not so distant future, with calls for repair being forwarded to sales.
This. It sounds great, but realistically companies will just control the supply of repair materials and scalp us that way instead.
I wonder what Louis Rossmann has to say about this.
Next up: printer ink??
W
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Oregon Governor Tina Kotek today signed the state’s Right to Repair Act, which will push manufacturers to provide more repair options for their products than any other state so far.
The law, like those passed in New York, California, and Minnesota, will require many manufacturers to provide the same parts, tools, and documentation to individuals and repair shops that they provide to their own repair teams.
“By eliminating manufacturer restrictions, the Right to Repair will make it easier for Oregonians to keep their personal electronics running," said Charlie Fisher, director of Oregon’s chapter of the Public Interest Research Group (PIRG), in a statement.
Apple opposed the Oregon repair bill for its parts-pairing ban.
John Perry, a senior manager for secure design at Apple, testified at a February hearing in Oregon that the pairing restriction would “undermine the security, safety, and privacy of Oregonians by forcing device manufacturers to allow the use of parts of unknown origin in consumer devices.”
According to Consumer Reports, which lobbied and testified in support of Oregon’s bill, the repair laws passed in four states now cover nearly 70 million people.
The original article contains 311 words, the summary contains 185 words. Saved 41%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
