I seriously cannot have any degree of nuanced conversation here.
Like I get it, we all know capitalism is bad, but it feels like every time I or anyone go towards discussing the steps that need to be taken to address current looming problems in the short term, someone has to jump in and shut it down with "capitalism bad >:[ " and tear down any idea presented because its not complete and total destruction of the current economic model.
The result just feels like an echo chamber where no actual solutions get presented other than someone posting whole ass dissertations on their 33-step (where 30/33 steps are about as vague as “we’ll just handle it”) plan to fully convert the world to an anarchist commune.
Edit: I still vastly prefer Lemmy and the fediverse and a whole, my complaint here is that many of you are TOO INTENSE. You blow up small scale discussion.
Sure, but have you tried using Linux, going vegan and guillotining billionaires?
You forgot Firefox, you absolute monster!
It is quite often that responses seem to come from school age children who just discovered [insert edgy counter-culture ideology], and all of their responses and world views revolve around a rudimentary desire for that ideological utopia, with very little consideration given to sociology or economics. I suppose that is actually who’s responding a lot of the time. All real world considerations are discarded, and any issues you identify are perceived as stupid/shill/Trumper/dummy/capitalist drivel with zero consideration given.
Agreed, often if you check the post history of folks like that you’ll see that they’re still in school.
I do notice and kinda agree that some users here are great at arguing about theory, but can’t see beyond that for practical application.
I dunno man, I didn’t come here looking to contribute to or find a plan to fix the world. I came here to doom scroll and look at memes.
I find Lemmy significantly worse than reddit was in this regard. The number of times I’ve had my different (not unpopular outside of lemmy) opinion met immediately with personal insults is way higher here in the few months I’ve been here than my years with reddit.
I’ve just been learning not to engage on any of the lemmy propaganda areas, and that leaves me with a lot less active communities.
I agree, and attribute that to the kind of people who would boycott Reddit forever, where the largest part of the lemmy population seems to originate from.
As much as I roll my eyes at the overuse of the term, lemmy is mostly comprised of the "woke"est of the reddit population.
Welcome to the Internet? It’s not just Lemmy lol
Agree. Reddit was the same thing if not worse. Nuance is [apparently] dead and if you do not explain everything from the dawn of Man to cover your thought, people pick the comment apart like carrion as if you’ve never thought about anything deeply before. They might even gloss over things you did say and attempt to invalidate or discredit your post because only they hold the Truth of the Internet handed down from the Elders. It can be a bit frustrating.
Did you even consider vegans don’t eat decaying flesh? You cant just hold everyone to your standards. I’m not even going to bother reading the rest of what you wrote because you’re so fundamentally wrong already that I’m confident i can stop there and not miss anything of substance.
110% agree.
I could say “you know, I guess I can kinda see why people thought free market capitalism would work”
And someone will come out of the woodwork like “I can’t believe you think billionaires profiting off exploitation is actually a good idea”
First of all, no? Lol I’m saying I understand why people might think it would work, but for some reason forget that we as a people are generally selfish. Human nature and corruption and all that, people in power hoard power.
So basically you’re saying capitalism would work if human nature were completely different? Gee I wonder why people don’t take your views seriously.
Wait, are you not being sarcastic…?
Humans have been trying to make Capitalism “work” for the past 400 years. It. Doesn’t. Work. We’re now at an extinction level event due to just how atrociously bad Capitalism is for the human species (and all species for that matter) .
Is there an /s missing or not? Genuinely hard to tell. Your comment is so fitting to what OP is complaining about.
There’s no /s missing. Just because the op complained doesn’t make the facts less true.
I think we agree on capitalism for the most part, but do you see how OP and others might find your comment unhelpful?
As OP says themselves, yes, they know capitalism is bad. Pointing it out and leading every discussion onto it doesn’t make for a very interesting or nuanced debate.
As others have said, capitalism is here to stay for at least several decades, probably closer to a century. Major societal change is unrealistic on the short term. I think OP (and I think I largely agree) thinks that it would be better to talk more concretely about the small incremental changes we can make to make society better today.
“we’re moving straight towards that iceberg, we’re all going to die!”
“I agree but this reaction is not being helpful. Now help me rearrange these deck chairs…”
I mean, this kinda comes back to OPs complaint again. As I attempt to enter in this discussion with a more nuanced take, you reply to me in a sarcastic tone with a metaphor (that I don’t think fits very well to reality) that seems to imply that either I fully agree with you or I am part of the problem or at least not doing anything helpful.
Surely you realize that these topics are complicated and there’s not a black/white dichotomy? Can you understand how OP and others might find comments like that off-putting, as you either need to fully agree or you’re part of the problem?
I also don’t think this stance or attitude is helping your case actually. If you want to convince people to action, this is not the way to do it. This just puts them off and pushes them away.
Not every post I make is meant to be a convincing call to action. Not every situation is going to be helped at this. I surmised that this thread - full of smug centrists pointing out how we “have to be realistic” and downvoting everyone pointing out that being this way has led us directly to a climate apocalypse - is not going to be worth the effort.
(that I don’t think fits very well to reality)
I think it’s the most apt analogy there is. There, the only possible solution would have been an effective mutiny, to wrest the wheel from the captain and sail to safer waters, and damn the journey time or company profits. Much like the only solution we have right now it to wrest the “wheel” of society from the rich an d damn company profits.
But I saw you elsewhere engaging in unscientific climate denialism, much like every capitalist apologist has to in order to stave of cognitivie dissonance, so I have no patience to talk to antiscientific people.
Surely you realize that these topics are complicated and there’s not a black/white dichotomy? Can you understand how OP and others might find comments like that off-putting, as you either need to fully agree or you’re part of the problem?
There is no complications in saying that an Anthropogenic extinction is underway and we need to stop the system powering it.
But I saw you elsewhere engaging in unscientific climate denialism, much like every capitalist apologist has to in order to stave of cognitivie dissonance, so I have no patience to talk to antiscientific people.
Where? I’m sorry if I’ve offended you but I am definitely in favour of doing all we can to stop climate change and I am definitely not anti-scientific or in denial about climate change (I fully believe climate change exists and is caused by humans, for the record).
Please, let’s not devolve to name-calling or insults.
Capitalism IS bad. You want solutions? Stop thinking any of them are going to involve capitalism.
If you need a limb removed because it threatens the whole body, we just remove the limb; we don’t try to save the limb at the expense of the body. Capitalism is the limb that needs to be removed.
Yep, capitalism bad. Totally. Now what? What’s next, homie?
Wow. This is spot on. Very interesting! Let me add my 2 cents: Capitalism is bad/eat the billionaires.
In fact I agree with your “echo chamber” comments, by design the servers and communities foster a group of like-minded individuals and the moderation is enforcing the same kind of thinking and rules.
At the same time, I find it more possible to get nuanced takes, back and forth discussion that isn’t just troll bait or shouting matches here on Lemmy than elsewhere. People approach some topics with more curiousity, are a bit more willing to admit they are wrong/corrected about something and listen to each other’s perspectives. Productive communication is a two way street. There’s still a group of jerks, trolls and bad actors, but it’s a monumental effort to moderate them away and they’re virtually inevitable in any populated anonymous online space.
I don’t really mind if something is downvoted for being unpopular unless it’s an obvious troll/flamer. That includes people that talk about capitalism’s benefits. I know there are cases of missed references or sarcasm, I am a proponent of /s to avoid misunderstanding for that reason.
What sort of thing would you like to have a nuanced discussion on?
Really just the half steps and the means to make progress towards a better system that works for the benefit of the majority, y’know, socialism. It’s a bottom up discussion that always gets taken over by the top-down people who can only ever talk about the whole shebang.
There are no satisfactory “answers” on how to make progress. Because the only actual answers are painfully and slowly. By educating and convincing others. So it always boils down to impatient revolutionaries trying to do it by force. Fundamentally failing, and setting everyone back again and again.
Even Marx phrased it as “evolution” not revolution. And like you said it starts from the bottom up. Revolution has only made the educated and ignorant alike fearfully clutch to capitalism. Because the ideology of the revolutionaries is a lateral move. That wouldn’t actually make things better. And would see a lot of people needlessly killed.
The one, possibly best thing we could do. Is for interested, individuals to start pooling their money to buy land. Then build high density, communal housing and sustainable communities. Dedicated towards proving socialist/small c communist principles. Ideally with people able to help replicate such communities. Where there will be no Lords of any sort. And rent will be the cost of what is needed to maintain housing. Not someone’s luxury. The funds to get started would be the biggest hurdle. But once people see there’s nothing to actually fear. And for younger generations, lots to gain. You’d see a lot of people warm up to the idea.
People don’t like hearing, “Look, we just gotta suffer under capitalism for a while longer because the rich aren’t done having their fun.”
Capitalism bad. Cool cool. Totally. Now what? Or is that… it?
Idk man, give me all the shit you want. I don’t have answers, I’m just frustrated and feel like I’m dying every day but can’t afford to see a doctor so, fuck me I guess.
We’re all on the same team. I promise. I’m sorry you’re unwell. It’s just some of us want to talk about what we can DO. I don’t want to see the same goddam “capitalism bad” talking phrase on every thread. I promise you, we’ve all heard it long before we came to Lemmy. It’s time for the next chapter: what to do.
I actually appreciate the flow of opinions and information from people with other viewpoints and political opinions. Yeah people can be too intense like you say. I’ve really enjoyed learning about politics from a communist’s perspective. I was sort of blown away by people who disliked liberals but their talking points weren’t those of the American right wing. They were leftist communists, and their viewpoints are really fascinating. I’ve really gone into the rabbit hole learning about class warfare and historical actions of communist countries. If people are trying to spread their viewpoints they should be able to make compelling arguments to support the things they advocate for. I’d be happy to digest more communist information/propaganda/marketing it’s really well thought out stuff.
Just keep in mind most of the people repeating this stuff are teenage edgelords. Every now and then you get a true intelligent person but it’s usually just a kid going through a phase.
That doesn’t make sense because Lemmy’s user base is probably almost entirely 40 or older
