Chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ would be criminalised under proposed state law
And let me guess, the proposed law does not criminalize anyone saying “Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty” (Likud’77) or denying Palestinians the right to self-determination (there is no such thing as a state’s right to exist under international law, contrary to the very real right to self-determination, enshrined in the UN Charter, that Germany is a signatory to).
These jewish-supremacist idiots are fuelling anti-Semitism, while propping up a genocidal apartheid regime.
Okay Germany, but this time they might deserve some of the hate.
That’s just what total democracy looks like. Completely normal. In Germany, some political parties (left and right) are also banned to make sure they can’t ever be elected.
Germany is not a total democracy, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
And so far there have only been three parties that have been been banned since 1945 and those are
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NSDAP by the Allies in 1945 for obvious reasons
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SRP in 1952 because they were a successor party of the NSDAP
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KPD in 1956 because they wanted to abolish democracy in favour of a soviet system
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So called right to exist.
* proposed law, which likely won’t pass.
But, true enough, the proposition is insane.
Fuck the speech police
Israel: a country so weak and pathetic it controls peoples speech.
The tought police will get you next
Are they going to make the cells out of Irony?
People who are now Israelis have a right to exist, just like everybody else.
The nation of Israel has no right to exist, same as all other nations.
Funny how racialized politics, autoritarianist tendencies and even a certain view of nation states as more important than people, did not stop when NAZI Germany was defeated and are still very much alive and acted on in Germany - the symbols such as swasticas and goose-stepping aren’t displayed anymore but the fundational aspects of the NAZI view of the world, of the value of people and of the validity of the use of force to suppress ideas the powerful dislike, are still alive and well in Germany.
German government seems to be as shamelessly bribed and corrupt as Americas.
When it comes to Israel, sort of.
Germany is making extreme over-corrections for their past. Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
The over correcting logic doesn’t hold much.
From a business point of view when dealing with Israel, it doesn’t take much to figure out they are blocking or limiting Palestinians business.
From a military point of view, it doesn’t take much to realize how genocidal most of these technologies are.
With the US, we can attribute the support to many things, political reasons, capitalism, religious with Christian Zionists, and even blunt blackmailing. However, with Germany all these doesn’t work as well.
Personally, I think German rather have Zionist there than being in Europe. Which is the ultimate solution. If Israel fail, most of these people will go back where they came from ( Poland, Russia, Germany, France, England) or immigrate to NA or SA which would be another problem no one want to deal with.
I was kinda for it, but with the dangerous rise in quasi-nazi party AfD, I wonder what’s the point of banning a nazi flag… and it’s even more ridiculous that foreign ethno religious supremacists enjoy that level of protection.
ONE MILLION Roma were murdered by the NAZIs during the Holocaust, alongside 3 million Jews.
Notice how German politicians don’t “unwaveringly support” the Roma. In fact, they don’t even talk about them.
The “change” in Germany after NAZIsm wasn’t the end of the idea that ethnicity defines how somebody should be treated or that some ethnicities are “good” and others are “bad”, it was merelly moving the Jewish People from the “bad” ethnicity to the “good” ethnicity column.
A consistent and non-racist “correction” for Germany’s past would see all of the actual victims of NAZIsm and their descendants being compensated for it, be they Roma, Jews, Handicaped, Homosexuals, Communists or from any other group, and ONLY the victims, not this Racist bullshit of claiming that all individuals of an entire and very specific ethnicity are all deserving of support even though the vast majority of them are in no way form or shape related to the victims of the NAZIs except for being born in the same ethnicity, whilst not doing it for those from other equally targetted groups (something I emphasize because it really shows how even the supposed “making of amends” is done in a Racist way).
This shit we see in Germany is not a genuine change from the way of thinking of the past, it’s just in the face of defeat doing the minimum required adjustment to the defeated political ideology to please the victors, which was moving a specific ethnicity which is influential in the main winner country of the war from untermenschen to ubermenschen, without doing it for any other targetted ethnicity, much less actually reforming the way of thinking about and acting towards people as “ethnics” that underpinned NAZIsm or even, as we see in this law, refuse to use force to silence dissenting opinions.
The “change” in Germany is mainly changing the façade, not at all the foundations - i.e. image management, not reform - hence how right now the open racism of “unwaveringly supporting” a genocidal nation with no other reason than the dominant ethnicity there and the choice of using force against those who disagree such as this law are right alongside:
Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
It’s not particularly complex. Israel spends hundreds of millions a year on hasbara. In fact they upped the budget by more than 4x this year. Any German politician saying anything against Israel would be seen as Hitler 2.0 by a lot of people, because Israel == Jews and disagreeing with Israel == wanting to genocide Jews if it comes from a German politician in particular.
In 2008, Merkel actually said Israel’s security is Germany’s reason for existence. Merz, an Israel supporter himself, said in October that Germany can’t support another government “unconditionally” because the first priority of a government should be the people that live in the country itself.
Overall, support for Israel is down in Germany (among real people, not politicians), but there’s still a bunch of international propaganda by Israel making Israel out to be victims of literally everything and associating all Jewish people with Israel despite the fact that internationally, many disagree with zionism.
It’ll take long for things to change significantly, but change is underway.
Good.
That said my point still stands that the “support” for the Jewish People in Germany was never a visible element of a move away from the way of thinking which was the foundation of NAZIsm, it was only a façade whilst the Racism remained unabatted and the authoritarian tendencies were only mildly suppressed, as demonstrated by the totally different treatment extended to other victims of the Holocaust such as the Roma People, by the continuation of Race-centric treatment of people when supposedly moving away from the NAZI years into the “making of amends” to the victims (rather than a race-agnostic victim-centric view) and by the repeated use of Force in Germany to suppress political dissent such as llustrated by this law (and the countless videos of the politzei’s treatment of anti-Genocide demonstrators).
At least at the level of the political elites Germany is not a modern liberal nation, it’s a Racist nation with a very limited and mainly performative bit of “liberalism” (in such a fertile field of Race-centric and Authoritarian thinking, no wonder the growth of the AfD)
Germany (and the rest of the West, but Germany is significantly worse than most, IMHO) needs to move away from from the Normalized Racism of using people’s ethnicity as a determinant of their worth and deserved treatment and towards Humanist views, as well as away from creeping Authoritarianism like this.
It was and is so easy for the Zionists in Israel to manipulate Germany exactly because the latter country doesn’t really follow Humanist values (it just puts on a show of being a “modern” “liberal” country) hence the reaction to the Zionist Genocide was not the Humanist reaction (your actions define your worth and thus our support, and those who mass murder civilians don’t get our support), it was the extreme Racist reaction (the Kanzelier proclaiming “we unwaveringly support the Jewish Nation” at a point when the list of murdered babies 1 year old or younger in Gaza was already 17 pages long) and the Racism and Authoritarianism have carried on since, hence the continued forcefull suppression of anti-Genocide views, including this law.
And this shit wasn’t just the CDU and SDP, even the Greens had a Race-centric take rather than a Humanist one, holding a position which can only be derived from the belief that Race is more important than even Human Life.
All this to say that the change that has to happen for Germany to enter the XXI century is a lot deeper and fundamental than the miniscule step of stopping the “unwavering support for Jewish Nation”.
You gotta be careful with these levels of truth
Maybe part of it but Maxwell and Epstein also operated in Europe. Germany has billionaires and easily compromised politicians.
They operated “in Europe” the same way Apple or Google does. They’re still subject to EU law, and while not infallible, Europe has shown it doesn’t just pave the way for oligarchy the same way the US does.
How much do you know about the Rothschilds and France?
Yes a slightly harder target but those UK arrests were because they sold UK secrets and got publicly caught. Very little has been done. The couple emailing about hunting humans, they’re Rothschilds.
Israel is still in Eurovision dude. You’re in a better position than Americans but don’t get complacent and start believing Israel and Russia weren’t actively competing for kompromat in your neck of the woods.
I know that the Rothschilds are a popular talking point for conspiracy nuts, and whenever I hear the name brought up I must prepare myself for some serious eye rolling exercises.
Yeah. That’s what everyone I’ve told this to has said. Next is the part where you google it and read a few very short e-mails several times trying to find some other meaning than what it sounds like.
Also Epstein seems to have regularly been introducing himself as the Rothschild’s money guy.
Dude, I’ve been exposed to this bullshit my entire life. You are not going to miraculously change anything by being umpteenth person to tell me to look up shit or “do my own research”.
It’s just tiresome and pathetic.
Tattorack, thats a theory that night be true-- do you have any data to show us that helps prove its accurate?
That’s not so much a theory as it’s just observing what Germany is doing.
They have strict rules on portrayals of Nazis and Nazi symbols that lead them to censor movies, games, comics, and other media. Examples of this include Indiana Jones or Wolfenstein.
The education system is very strict and specific about what it can talk about concerning the world wars and Germany. If you want detailed explanations, I have a few German friends I could ask directly.
I could also ask them to explain how often Germany paid Israel for WWII reperations and how WWII shaped all rhetoric involving Jews.
Israeli people have as much right to exist as Palestinian people. So let’s not genocide the Palestinians, no matter how desperately Golda Meir claimed they’re not real. Israel has a right to exist =/= Israel has a right to slaughter a culture. It’s not fucking hard you cunts
Does human have right to exist? If yes, then those who identify themselves as Israeli and those who identify themselves as Palestinians have the right to exist.
However, including Israel as a state and government in this statement doesn’t make sense.
Its like someone going to another person house and take over a room then say I have the right to exist. Yes you have the right to exist but not the right to steal, and control the house. Now this state literally committing an ongoing genocide. So yes they state doesn’t have the right to exist.
they do if they hadnt forcibly removed palestinians from the area since ww2.
It is really hard if you’re only able to see the world in binary choices, which seems to be a common root of issues around the world
This is basically the downfall of America.
As a non-American it doesn’t appear as a loss really…
I just hope they don’t import their culture war BS here any further.
A liberal democracy, apparently
Two wrongs don’t make one right, my fellow Germans!
Germany is going too far…
Too far right.
Too far right Yes, I’m sure the AFD will support this law.
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Yeah, it really looks like Germany has learned the wrong lesson from the Holocaust.
Quite a leap from a legitimate criticism over their politicians actions to denying a whole people statehood… Maybe add some nuance to your thinking like the other comments on this thread have.
No. No ethnic group is entitled to their own statehood. That’s a blatant endorsement of ethnostates, which is an inherently authoritarian and genocidal concept.
Also, some random dickhead reported my comment for “promotion g genocide”. Some real backwards ass shit right there.
There is a reason the Jews needed a place to go. Neither the first nor last time probably this reason exists. Probably simpler to give them a place of refuge. Also your comment shows you don’t know how Palestine cameu to be, because it happens to match exactly these circumstances as well. Should we treat them the same as you suggest we treat Israel?
Nobody expected them to go full fascism and genocidal. But then again, this is the cycle of abuse, isn’t it?
There is a reason the Jews needed a place to go.
And that has literally nothing to do with the modern state of Israel. Zionism is the sole reason it exists.
Neither the first nor last time probably this reason exists.
Still has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel other than an excuse to justify its existence when people point out its a rogue and genocidal nuclear state.
Probably simpler to give them a place of refuge.
Virtually all Western countries, hell even some of the Eastern European countries at the time would have been preferable, and mostly familiar countries for them to live in.
Tell me, was it simpler to start genocide against Palestine and to create a state that would perpetually continue this genocide and act as the West’s puppet state in the region? An imperial puppet that keeps invading its neighbors unprovoked and now illegally has nukes? I think it would have been easier to simply give them refuge in safer countries, such as those that liberated Jews in the Holocaust.
I mean seriously, are you trying to justify the state that was fucking founded on genocide
Also your comment shows you don’t know how Palestine cameu to be, because it happens to match exactly these circumstances as well.
Completely irrelevant to this conversation. Palestinians had been living in the region for centuries. Modern Israel only formed as Zionists demanded the Jews rule the region for religious nut-jobbery and antisemitism, in relatively recent history.
Should we treat them the same as you suggest we treat Israel?
You understand Palestine is actively undergoing a 80 year long genocide from Israel, right?
The audacity and stupidity of your question is outstanding.
No, I believe we should treat Israel like Nazi Germany. The parallels are absurdly on point, and they must be stopped.
Nobody expected them to go full fascism and genocidal.
Wrong, their country was founded on it in both ideology and action.
But then again, this is the cycle of abuse, isn’t it?
Absolutely moronic and unhinged take. This is some insane Zionist bullshit you’re spewing here. Is Israel paying you to say this shit? Or are you defending a rogue genocidal nuclear state for free?
International law do not prohibit merging and separating states. Because of Israel policies since it’s creation and building colonies over the decade a two state solution is impossible to do. I have yet seen anybody saying how to implement a two state, politicians only say it without conviction to protect Israel goals and maintaining the status quo
So you propose merging both States and creating a single governing body? What would that look like? UN coming in and both sides stop fighting? Honestly asking, sounds like an interesting idea.
So you propose merging both States and creating a single governing body?
Yes
What would that look like?
A one state with equal rights and a form of democracy only palestinians and israelis can decide
UN coming in and both sides stop fighting?
Not only the UN but Palestinians and Israelis themselves would form an anti terrorist force dealing with Palestinians and Israelis . Just like many countries with civil wars was able to reconciliate. If you think two population can never live together then even a two two state solution would not solve the issue since the two state would still be side by side. Modern warfare is about drones so you don’t even need ground invasion to attack your neighboring country. Of course it is not easy but it makes a lot more sense then a two state solution.
It is known since South Africa situation and many politicians have suggested that.
I would feel the same if the Zionists had picked my country as destination and I’d live on a strip of land while everything else would be Israel.
You can feel the same. And you have the right to speak out for that. Your and my feelings are not a suitable basis for international politics.
Are you deducing my point of view to a discussion of mere feelings?
In case my opinion is not worthy enough for you, check out Israel Zangwill, who was a zionist and a proponent of ”people without land, land without people” narrative, but after realising it was already inhabited turned against it.
I’m saying you havesa right to your opinion and there should be no law restricting your freedom to speak it.
Also saying that power does not care about those opinions and that changing something requires more than just our opinions being spoken out publicly.
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“Genocide for thee, not for mee”
EDIT: Yes Lemmy, if you take Palestine, give it’s territory to Israel and disband Palestine, and then impose control upon them - that’s a form of genocide.
But of course you want this towards another country/state, just giving you a good example of your own hypocrisy.
Are you the moron who reported my comment “genocidal”? Wtf is wrong with you? How dense do you have to be to have that interpretation?
Israel is an erhnostate. It’s existence is built on genocide. I said Germany shouldn’t support the state of Israel because it is inherently genocidal, and it fucking is. That means Germany ignored the lessons they were supposed to learn from the Holocaust and is endorsing genocide.
Maybe think before you comment and report baselessly like that.
Ethnic nationalism is a medieval idea that creates unstable societies
I don’t even know who you are, but to me it’s quite clear they feel like they owe to the Jews, but hey, those are just my last 2 brain cells connecting the dots and not being obnoxious or angry online, or insulting others based on assumptions
So what part of owing the Jews plays into their support of Israel(a state that does not represent Jews as an ethnicity) factors into supporting:
An apartheid ethnostate?
Genocide against Palestinians?
Rampant and violent expansionism in Palestine?
Rampant and violent expansionism against nearly all of Israel’s neighbors?
Mass rape of prisoners of war?
Employing the most notorious pedophile to traffic minors to rich elites and politicians in an elaborate blackmail scheme?
An illegal and offensive war with Iran that has tanked the global economy?
Illegally possessing nuclear weapons and threatening to use them against Palestine?
Exporting mass surveillance technology to authoritarian regimes?
These are just a few of Israel’s crimes against humanity. But I guess you think Germany should have to endlessly support those monsters.
So what part of owing the Jews plays into their support of Israel(a state that does not represent Jews as an ethnicity) factors into supporting:
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? You can’t even easily get a citizenship without Jewish links, and that’s not even without getting into the WW2 and how modern Israel came to be (again?)
An apartheid ethnostate?
It might be best to refrain from using words whose definitions can be a bit advanced, and therefore end up being misused in completely wrong contexts.
For the rest of your points - I just simply stated why Germany does this, not really getting into why they should not, but if you look at the Ie. military exports, then it has fallen quite drastically, so the support has definitely fallen.
When it comes to Europe and support of Islamic States versus support for other western countries or their allies - I don’t think I need to elaborate here.
Weird how you’re getting downvoted when it’s just facts. No reasoning or anything either.
You Europeans give Americans so much shit; This shit would NEVER happen in the US. We can say whatever the hell we want.
You Europeans give Americans so much shit;
If you don’t like that, then stop being complete embarrassments
We can say whatever the hell we want.
Do you? Maybe your government won’t publically make you STFU, but plenty of Americans have died under suspicious circumstances. And if not the government there are plenty of NGOs (Non-Governmental Organization) that’ll fuck up your life, if they can.
You can say whatever you want, but have to live in fear, that some government thugs in unmarked vans snatch you from the street and let you vanish in detention camps. Idk.
But, true enough, this proposed law discussed here is going too far. Fingers crossed that it does not pass (and it likely won’t).
Is there anywhere that has free speech and a functional healthcare system?
Rings a bit hollow when Europeans are being denied entry because we don’t like Trump and the president is trying to shut down independent media.
…we tend not to care about people who aren’t United States citizens.
Or US citizens who aren’t a certain color, or gender, for that matter.
Despite on what you might have read on Lemmy, most Americans aren’t overtly racist. Alot of people want to reduce immigration, but that is because 80-90% of our total population growth is the result of immigration.
… it’s not just about the impact it will inevitably have on our culture. As automation continues to take low income jobs, we will have a large surplus of unemployed lower class workers. There is a correlation between our low population density and our high standard of living.
Yeah I give you that, our border laws are insane
Not only that, as an American citizen I can go to prison for existing in public. The immigration officers are a secret police that could detain me on the spot for my gender expression not matching my government ID, and my skin is the right shade of brown to receive their racial profiling.
I’m the type of American citizen who is on the front line for this shit, but when there is no one left to speak up for you, you’ll be next. They will take your right to vote by rigging elections and making the legislature irrelevant. They will throw you in jail for being a terrorist if you oppose fascism. They have shown open disregard for the Constitution at every juncture, and if you become a problem person, don’t expect it to save you.
This is not a distant problem, it is knocking at your door. You can’t claim America is “free” anymore. That era is over.
“So far, no federal law has been adopted.”
The law talked about in the article has also not passed. It is a proposal.
Your occupation government demanded Germans to outlaw this type of speech in the postwar constitution.
