In terms of culture, in terms of actual people and their actual beliefs, we have actually changed very little in the last 50 years.
We’ve changed “very little” since the time of these ads? When there were still places in Europe where women couldn’t vote? When marry-yor-rapist laws were still common? In those years where we had the first female UK prime minister, the first female German chancellor, the first female US vice president and so on? Come on.
Sexual harassment is very much a problem in modern society, and way too many misogynists still exist, but to say that women are still “not people” and that we’re not moving forward in recent years is definitely an exaggeration. Women from 50 years ago probably wouldn’t believe it if you told them all the progress we’ve made in the meantime.
The dominant structure of the patriarchy has never changed. Women still earn less, disproportionately suffer sexual and physical violence, still face constant policing of our bodies, still face patriarchal attitudes in men and our friends and our families, were still expected to have children and marry men and we face prejudice and discrimination if we are unwed and have no children. This entire conversation has been principally about American power structures, but similar ones exist around the world. Women can’t even get safe health care in America. Women are legally not afforded the same rights as men in America, not that the legal system is the sole metric by which we measure inequality. We are still expected to be homemakers, still face sexual harassment in our homes in our workplaces in education and from our friends. We still get assaulted by men at staggeringly under reported rates. The ruling class is almost entirely men. The ruling class is almost entirely patriarchal. Rapists still barely suffer any punishment for their crimes, not even 10% of rapists ever see any kind of consequences for their actions.
You are vastly overestimating how much society has changed. 50 years ago we had no right to safe health care, and once again today we don’t. 50 years ago our mother’s were being beaten and sexually assaulted by their partners at sickening rates, and still we are today. 50 years ago women were paid less than men, and so we are today. I could go on. Nominally blatant hatred towards women is less tolerable in today’s media, but its still tolerated and present in a lot of it. Our actual lives, our actual experiences, our suffering at the hands of misogyny has changed very little from 50 years ago. I mentioned in another comment, but I briefly worked with kids at a youth center. And I can say with certainty that the trend isn’t even better with their generation. Systemic change was always required to solve systemic issues, and we have never even come close to systemic change with regards to misogyny. That would mean deconstructing one of the cornerstones of American society and culture, and you’ve seen how any attacks on American society or culture are perceived. Our concerns are always dismissed and our proposal for change always falls on deaf ears by those who see no problem with our suffering.
So just because crimes against women still occur we haven’t improved at all? It’s not an improvement until there is absolutely zero crimes being committed against women?
Again, you can’t expect that to happen in a century. Crimes against women have been taken much more seriously in recent years, hell, some of them weren’t even considered crimes 50 years ago. Prejudices and patriarchal attitude has also been getting less and less intense, as people, both male and female, realized they’re generally harmful to everyone. Things have gotten better, are getting better and hopefully will get even better as more and more “relics of the past” leave this world and newer generations take over.
When women are actively losing rights i don’t see how you could possibly think that inequality against women is getting better. You’re just dismissing change by saying women must continue to suffer the effects of misogyny until some undetermined point in the future when all will naturally resolve itself. Misogyny has existed in many forms throughout all of human history. Now is the time when women are able to best advocate for themselves. We are not equal and it has only improved in terms of the social acceptability of voicing outright hatred towards women. This is a good thing, and I’m not saying it isn’t. It is not enough. It is nowhere near enough. Women are so burdened by misogyny that we can never be equal unless we are actively counteracting misogyny wherever it exists.
The reality is inequality against women has not improved nearly as much as you seem to think. I am a woman, I have first hand experience of it. If you see the improvement of inequality against women as a good then I have no idea why were having this conversation. You should be able to completely understand the way women suffer systemic institutional violence and discrimination in a way that men as a class do not. We can never even scratch the surface of doing something about it if every time we talk about it we’re told that we are exaggerating and lying, or worse that we’re attacking men.
Misogyny which is a systemic issue requires systemic solutions. Simply making it socially unacceptable to outright advocate explicit violence and hatred against women does not address the many other ways that women suffer from misogyny. But this is all moot, as we don’t even legally have the same rights as of now. So it doesn’t matter, women are objectively suffering because of misogyny from even the state and it’s violence in much the same ways we are in the 1970s. In many ways today’s landscape looks even bleaker than it did then, with states and politicians actively taking away more women’s rights.
What rights are you losing? I can only think of the whole abortion issue in the US and it’s pretty clear people are already sick and tired of it and it’s not going to last for long, unless they pull some shenanigans. In the meantime I feel very bad for women who saw or will see denied an abortion request as that’s something that can straight-up ruin your life, but unfortunately as long as America is so reliant on religion you can’t expect to see decisions that make sense. Again, time will definitely help as newer generations are overwhelmingly irreligious and in support of abortion.
And no, I’m not dismissing change. Actually we haven’t even talked about change at all. The main focus of this discussion has been more of an oppression olympics kind of one. So in case I missed it, what is your suggestion for an actual, systemic solution that will solve sexism? Because I really can’t think of one that isn’t “teach kids not to be sexist and hope it trickles down as time goes on”.
I mean the right to bodily autonomy and access to safe health care has been taken away for women. Its already been a year, I dont know how you can consider that not lasting long. There’s an entire party of politicians in America and in a lot of other closely related countries that is openly against the rights of women. In Texas and Florida there are pushes to have women’s rights to custody and divorce changed. By the parties currently ruling those states. But in any case, what’s written in law and what happens are not the same and discrimination against women exists even in ways the law says are illegal.
Theres the anti feminist “oppression olympics” concept again. A systemic solution to misogyny would be to actively undo the systemic inequalities against women. Make misogyny unacceptable at any level of society, someone who is misogynistic should not be allowed to exist socially in any context whatsoever. It should be met with active resistance in every place it exists. Women should be paid equally, and the government should be interfering in business hiring practices and wage disputes to ensure that women are at all levels being paid equally. Meritocracy isn’t real, and women should be afforded equal political and social power in all contexts. That means the dissolution of all forms of patriarchal propaganda, the dissolution of the institution of the nuclear family, the dissolution of sex based discrimination in all forms of education housing and employment, a completely rebuilt justice system that appropriately investigates every single incidence of sexual harassment sexual assault and rape and ensures that punishment is extremely severe.
And even that wouldn’t totally resolve it in all its forms, since capital is the primary vehicle for the ruling class to use power. Capitalism upholds patriarchy, and income inequality would need to be addressed to make women equal in society.
Make misogyny unacceptable at any level of society, someone who is misogynistic should not be allowed to exist socially in any context whatsoever. It should be met with active resistance in every place it exists.
Uh, it is unacceptable and met with resistance in the great majority of the first world? We can’t really do any more than that, you want a law to be able to legally murder someone on the basis of a misogynistic affirmation?
Women should be paid equally, and the government should be interfering in business hiring practices and wage disputes to ensure that women are at all levels being paid equally. Meritocracy isn’t real, and women should be afforded equal political and social power in all contexts.
Great, how do you enforce that when not even all white men are paid equally? People are always going to have biases. We can make laws for public employment and impose ranges for private ones, but there’s never going to be a list exhaustive enough so that every person doing a job is retributed the same way.
That means the dissolution of all forms of patriarchal propaganda, the dissolution of the institution of the nuclear family, the dissolution of sex based discrimination in all forms of education housing and employment
And this is what is constantly trying to be done (well, except in half of post-2016 USA but that’s a different issue). Nuclear family is in an “involuntary” constant decline with the majority group of people being “married without children” in a 2000 statistic. I don’t really remember hearing about any blatantly patriarchal propaganda or systemic sex-based discriminations in education, housing or employment in recent times and I’m pretty sure the little that still does exist is in a shrinking minority, feel free to prove me wrong.
a completely rebuilt justice system that appropriately investigates every single incidence of sexual harassment sexual assault and rape and ensures that punishment is extremely severe.
This is, supposedly, what’s in place now, but the fact that it isn’t working doesn’t mean it’s intentional. In general, sexual crimes are among the least likely to leave physical, indisputable proof, and it is therefore very hard for judges to prosecute them effectively. The fact that yes, the justice system is a very old institution and has definitely bias behind it is undeniable, but while I hope it gets “rebuilt” as well, I don’t think it’s going to change much (unless you fill it with people that have a bias towards males, which would just be changing the target of the problem).
We’ve changed “very little” since the time of these ads? When there were still places in Europe where women couldn’t vote? When marry-yor-rapist laws were still common? In those years where we had the first female UK prime minister, the first female German chancellor, the first female US vice president and so on? Come on.
Sexual harassment is very much a problem in modern society, and way too many misogynists still exist, but to say that women are still “not people” and that we’re not moving forward in recent years is definitely an exaggeration. Women from 50 years ago probably wouldn’t believe it if you told them all the progress we’ve made in the meantime.
The dominant structure of the patriarchy has never changed. Women still earn less, disproportionately suffer sexual and physical violence, still face constant policing of our bodies, still face patriarchal attitudes in men and our friends and our families, were still expected to have children and marry men and we face prejudice and discrimination if we are unwed and have no children. This entire conversation has been principally about American power structures, but similar ones exist around the world. Women can’t even get safe health care in America. Women are legally not afforded the same rights as men in America, not that the legal system is the sole metric by which we measure inequality. We are still expected to be homemakers, still face sexual harassment in our homes in our workplaces in education and from our friends. We still get assaulted by men at staggeringly under reported rates. The ruling class is almost entirely men. The ruling class is almost entirely patriarchal. Rapists still barely suffer any punishment for their crimes, not even 10% of rapists ever see any kind of consequences for their actions.
You are vastly overestimating how much society has changed. 50 years ago we had no right to safe health care, and once again today we don’t. 50 years ago our mother’s were being beaten and sexually assaulted by their partners at sickening rates, and still we are today. 50 years ago women were paid less than men, and so we are today. I could go on. Nominally blatant hatred towards women is less tolerable in today’s media, but its still tolerated and present in a lot of it. Our actual lives, our actual experiences, our suffering at the hands of misogyny has changed very little from 50 years ago. I mentioned in another comment, but I briefly worked with kids at a youth center. And I can say with certainty that the trend isn’t even better with their generation. Systemic change was always required to solve systemic issues, and we have never even come close to systemic change with regards to misogyny. That would mean deconstructing one of the cornerstones of American society and culture, and you’ve seen how any attacks on American society or culture are perceived. Our concerns are always dismissed and our proposal for change always falls on deaf ears by those who see no problem with our suffering.
So just because crimes against women still occur we haven’t improved at all? It’s not an improvement until there is absolutely zero crimes being committed against women?
Again, you can’t expect that to happen in a century. Crimes against women have been taken much more seriously in recent years, hell, some of them weren’t even considered crimes 50 years ago. Prejudices and patriarchal attitude has also been getting less and less intense, as people, both male and female, realized they’re generally harmful to everyone. Things have gotten better, are getting better and hopefully will get even better as more and more “relics of the past” leave this world and newer generations take over.
When women are actively losing rights i don’t see how you could possibly think that inequality against women is getting better. You’re just dismissing change by saying women must continue to suffer the effects of misogyny until some undetermined point in the future when all will naturally resolve itself. Misogyny has existed in many forms throughout all of human history. Now is the time when women are able to best advocate for themselves. We are not equal and it has only improved in terms of the social acceptability of voicing outright hatred towards women. This is a good thing, and I’m not saying it isn’t. It is not enough. It is nowhere near enough. Women are so burdened by misogyny that we can never be equal unless we are actively counteracting misogyny wherever it exists.
The reality is inequality against women has not improved nearly as much as you seem to think. I am a woman, I have first hand experience of it. If you see the improvement of inequality against women as a good then I have no idea why were having this conversation. You should be able to completely understand the way women suffer systemic institutional violence and discrimination in a way that men as a class do not. We can never even scratch the surface of doing something about it if every time we talk about it we’re told that we are exaggerating and lying, or worse that we’re attacking men.
Misogyny which is a systemic issue requires systemic solutions. Simply making it socially unacceptable to outright advocate explicit violence and hatred against women does not address the many other ways that women suffer from misogyny. But this is all moot, as we don’t even legally have the same rights as of now. So it doesn’t matter, women are objectively suffering because of misogyny from even the state and it’s violence in much the same ways we are in the 1970s. In many ways today’s landscape looks even bleaker than it did then, with states and politicians actively taking away more women’s rights.
What rights are you losing? I can only think of the whole abortion issue in the US and it’s pretty clear people are already sick and tired of it and it’s not going to last for long, unless they pull some shenanigans. In the meantime I feel very bad for women who saw or will see denied an abortion request as that’s something that can straight-up ruin your life, but unfortunately as long as America is so reliant on religion you can’t expect to see decisions that make sense. Again, time will definitely help as newer generations are overwhelmingly irreligious and in support of abortion.
And no, I’m not dismissing change. Actually we haven’t even talked about change at all. The main focus of this discussion has been more of an oppression olympics kind of one. So in case I missed it, what is your suggestion for an actual, systemic solution that will solve sexism? Because I really can’t think of one that isn’t “teach kids not to be sexist and hope it trickles down as time goes on”.
I mean the right to bodily autonomy and access to safe health care has been taken away for women. Its already been a year, I dont know how you can consider that not lasting long. There’s an entire party of politicians in America and in a lot of other closely related countries that is openly against the rights of women. In Texas and Florida there are pushes to have women’s rights to custody and divorce changed. By the parties currently ruling those states. But in any case, what’s written in law and what happens are not the same and discrimination against women exists even in ways the law says are illegal.
Theres the anti feminist “oppression olympics” concept again. A systemic solution to misogyny would be to actively undo the systemic inequalities against women. Make misogyny unacceptable at any level of society, someone who is misogynistic should not be allowed to exist socially in any context whatsoever. It should be met with active resistance in every place it exists. Women should be paid equally, and the government should be interfering in business hiring practices and wage disputes to ensure that women are at all levels being paid equally. Meritocracy isn’t real, and women should be afforded equal political and social power in all contexts. That means the dissolution of all forms of patriarchal propaganda, the dissolution of the institution of the nuclear family, the dissolution of sex based discrimination in all forms of education housing and employment, a completely rebuilt justice system that appropriately investigates every single incidence of sexual harassment sexual assault and rape and ensures that punishment is extremely severe.
And even that wouldn’t totally resolve it in all its forms, since capital is the primary vehicle for the ruling class to use power. Capitalism upholds patriarchy, and income inequality would need to be addressed to make women equal in society.
Uh, it is unacceptable and met with resistance in the great majority of the first world? We can’t really do any more than that, you want a law to be able to legally murder someone on the basis of a misogynistic affirmation?
Great, how do you enforce that when not even all white men are paid equally? People are always going to have biases. We can make laws for public employment and impose ranges for private ones, but there’s never going to be a list exhaustive enough so that every person doing a job is retributed the same way.
And this is what is constantly trying to be done (well, except in half of post-2016 USA but that’s a different issue). Nuclear family is in an “involuntary” constant decline with the majority group of people being “married without children” in a 2000 statistic. I don’t really remember hearing about any blatantly patriarchal propaganda or systemic sex-based discriminations in education, housing or employment in recent times and I’m pretty sure the little that still does exist is in a shrinking minority, feel free to prove me wrong.
This is, supposedly, what’s in place now, but the fact that it isn’t working doesn’t mean it’s intentional. In general, sexual crimes are among the least likely to leave physical, indisputable proof, and it is therefore very hard for judges to prosecute them effectively. The fact that yes, the justice system is a very old institution and has definitely bias behind it is undeniable, but while I hope it gets “rebuilt” as well, I don’t think it’s going to change much (unless you fill it with people that have a bias towards males, which would just be changing the target of the problem).
This is very exaggerated