I’ve created this post: https://sh.itjust.works/post/8898162
And some admin showed they can see how the upvotes\downvotes go.
If you are concerned about privacy, you should know, that this data on Lemmy can be easily mined and tracked.
Well, not only this data, all activity on lemmy is public since it needs to be federated (sent to all instances subscribed to the community will receive all activity).
Which means any person can track anyone if they subscribe to the same communities the user’s instance has.AFAIK the only activity not sent is saved content, and downvotes from content hosted in instances which disabled them.
EDIT: for more example, here’s my upvote to this post
"actor":"https://lemmy.pe1uca.dev/u/pe1uca","object":"https://sh.itjust.works/post/8931097","type":"Like","id":"https://lemmy.pe1uca.dev/activities/like/f6b0cced-4e1c-41d7-bf11-349b680c4d84","audience":"https://lemmy.one/c/privacyguides"And here’s the original comment
actor":"https://lemmy.pe1uca.dev/u/pe1uca","to":["https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#Public"],"object":{"type":"Note","id":"https://lemmy.pe1uca.dev/comment/1434121","attributedTo":"https://lemmy.pe1uca.dev/u/pe1uca","to":["https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#Public"],"cc":["https://lemmy.one/c/privacyguides","https://sh.itjust.works/u/andrew_bidlaw"],"content":"","mediaType":"text/markdown"},"published":"2023-11-11T04:07:31.962497+00:00","tag":[{"href":"https://sh.itjust.works/u/andrew_bidlaw","name":"@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works","type":"Mention"}],"distinguished":false,"language":{"identifier":"en","name":"English"},"audience":"https://lemmy.one/c/privacyguides"},"cc":["https://lemmy.one/c/privacyguides","https://sh.itjust.works/u/andrew_bidlaw"],"tag":[{"href":"https://sh.itjust.works/u/andrew_bidlaw","name":"@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works","type":"Mention"}],"type":"Create","id":"https://lemmy.pe1uca.dev/activities/create/7a1c726e-0191-4a71-8980-a565727ac52d","audience":"https://lemmy.one/c/privacyguides"And all instances which are subscribed to this community need to receive this information to keep it updated.
Butt it’s not private! /S
All federated data (thus public) should be easily available to the end user. Otherwise we create a false sense of security.
Privacy is not the same as security…not to say Lemmy is either, but it’s definitely not “private.”
IP addresses of accounts are also private?
I assumed as much seeing as it’s a public site ran by many different entities.
Similarly, I think Google can read my gmails.
In order to read gmails, you have to work at google.
In order to read the upvotes on this post, all you have to do is spin up your own lemmy instance. Anyone with technical knowledge can do it. The problem is a bit different. I could do it, if I was motivated.
If lemmy gets popular enough, there will be 3rd party sites with search bars and nice UIs and graphs to help you see how someone votes.
Not sure what the solution is. Maybe if we can’t make votes private, they should be fully public.
I don’t understand the concern though. I always assumed my votes, comments, or even PMs here were readable by at least the admins of the instance I’m a member of. The fact that votes and comments are public doesn’t seem to matter from a security or privacy standpoint.
There was an era of reddit where some nerds used addons to tag users for their own personal notes. Nothing wrong with making your own tags for people, imo.
But I do remember there were extensions for “mass tagging”. You could install browser extensions to label people based on their post history. Someone would run a script, aggregate data, put little tags on people based on how they post. Like, maybe you would install a tagger to label people who don’t agree with you politically, based on someone’s aggregated data.
I never personally liked the mass tagging stuff. It felt toxic to put people you don’t know in boxes. But, I never felt like it should be prevented. At the end of the day if you post something publicly, you shouldn’t be surprised when people respond to that.
But, some people here might not realize how public their vote history is. Not sure anyone wants weird graphs about how they vote. I upvote a lot of stuff, I’m sure a lot of people upvote stuff they don’t totally agree with. Maybe I’m imagining a problem where there isn’t one. I’ve just seen how weird people get when it’s easy to put people in boxes.
Oh yeah I used both of those.
Reddit enhancement suite would do manual, single user tagging and the Masstagger browser add on would do… well, mass tagging.
I used it to show me when people I interacted with made more than 50 posts/comments in places like r/conservative or r/thedonald. It would also link you to the comments so you could see what they were saying there.
I found it helpful because there were times when I found people undermining concepts like cultural pluralism and participated in those subs. I knew where they were coming from and what they were trying to convince readers of (nothing good).
Several times it helped me effectively argue against white supremacists.
As long as comments are public, which I think is the point of sites like Reddit, lemmy, and kbin, those types of plugins and info will be available.
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I can already see all upvotes and downvotes on mbin(kbin fork) so it’s not really that private
There are all upvotes of your post for example - https://fedia.io/m/privacyguides@lemmy.one/t/395044/If-you-can-create-a-Lemmy-instance-and-federate-you/favourites
Link lead me to main page, but after finding my post, yeah, I can see it.
On lotide I click likes on a post and it lists who posted. If you make a post or comment with mastodon you get notified every time someone upvotes.
Oh, I remember seeing this a while back on the lemmy threads, thanks for the reminder!
Burner accounts for all! You get a burner and you get a burner and you as well!
Haha. If all of us would do so, we’d sure up this usercount to combat Meta’s Threads and dying Twitter.
True!
From when I was asking about it, I think it’s only the instance admins that can see the details. It would be nice to have this information clearly outlined somewhere, so people know and aren’t surprised.
Maybe a table like
What can each person see
Lemmy
Other users Community Moderators Instance Admins info A1 info B1 info C1 (all) info A2 info B2 info C2 (home instance) info A3 info B3 info C3 (community’s instance)
Reddit
Other users Community Moderators Instance Admins info A1 info B1 info C1 (all) info A2 info B2 info C2 (all) info A3 info B3 info C3 (all) info A4 info B4 info C4 (all)
The table rendering does not work, at least for me on mobile (jerboa android)
Connect app makes it work. Some are slow to implement the uniformal markdown.
Works in Voyager Android
I think the table should be off site on a guide website
As for the rendering, which app are you using? I’ve found that too (Boost misses most rendering for me)
Jerboa.
i have seen tables with this app in other communitites therefore I thought its a typo.
Odd, I wonder what the difference is
Rendering broken in Memmy for me.
Anyone can see any upvote from federated users via kbin – for example, the upvotes on the comment this is a reply to can be seen here: https://kbin.social/m/privacyguides@lemmy.one/t/616970/If-you-can-create-a-Lemmy-instance-and-federate-you/comment/3491191/favourites
That may not be complete or consistent though given the way federation works.
Downvotes from lemmy do not show up. (Not sure why not; haven’t dug into it.) Only downvotes from kbin members are shown on kbin. Also unclear to me if downvotes between different kbin/mbin instances show up or if it’s the local instance only. (I’ve only noticed local downvotes, but haven’t really been looking.)
Oh huh
Well that might discourage people from voting…
Yeah, I had a mixed reaction to finding that out a while ago, but I’m kind of just rolling with it for now. Votes are just simply NOT private on here, for better or worse. My feeling right now is that it’s sort of positive from a community feel perspective, but I’m also avoiding interacting with a lot of subjects I consider more controversial.
Probably we’ll end up developing a culture of either lots of alts used simultaneously, short lived accounts with regular name changes, or both as people become more aware of this. Either that or people will just say “Fuck it. You really want to see all the weird porn I like and my political preferences and what not? Don’t blame me if you regret looking!” :p
Appreciate the thoughts, it gives me more to think about. I’ve also been avoiding controversial subject matter and I think I’ll avoid it even more now.
I do think the Fediverse needs to improve privacy and ease of use for alts. I’ve seen a lot of stuff over the years on Reddit that an authoritarian government would love to get their hands on. I guess the fediverse, by design, can’t be private? I worry that someone who doesn’t know better will get hurt because they don’t understand the risks.
All the more reason to join trusted instances with solid admins, and to keep your Lemmy profile separate from your real identity.
A possible workflow right now might be to browse on one account, and post comments from another. Boost on Reddit made that easier, but I don’t think the Lemmy one does that yet
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The internet is a messy place and I like my privacy
I think people will feel more comfortable voting if it wasn’t made public. Same reason we add privacy booths during elections, or put our heads down in class when voting on simple things
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Harassment, mostly.
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A vote on kbin/lemmy is closer to a retweet than to a vote on reddit in terms of its potential impact on folks. You are publicly saying you support/do not support a post by voting on it (which might be taken as publicly thanking someone with an upvote or publicly saying fuck you with a downvote in some contexts); that can be a workable system, but it’s surprising if you’re coming from reddit where basically no one but the admins (and whoever they told/sold the data to) actually knows what you voted up/down.
Hell, consider all the drama around “YOU DOWNVOTED ME!!” / “No I didn’t!” BS that was so common even when it was just suspected – now it can be confirmed (again, for better or worse), for kbin users. I was on reddit for a long time and just thinking about that crap makes me feel tired… -.- Downvoting on kbin is potentially picking a fight every time. The end result is that I’ve basically never downvoted anything except some spam bots. I don’t need that shit in my life again – even for some of the posts that I think really should be downvoted, I’m just ignoring now. (Not getting into it further. Don’t ask. I won’t respond.)
If your IRL identity is associated with your account (or can be figured out eventually…), upvoting something really spicy could also end up causing you the same kind of drama IRL as retweeting or commenting strongly on the post – e.g. job loss, loss of business, targeted harassment/violence campaigns, loss of friends/romantic partners, etc…
I really don’t need more drama in my life, so I’m a bit more mindful of how I’m voting (for better or worse) and some stuff I probably would’ve voted on before, I am just leaving alone now.
@andrew_bidlaw You can simply see this data on any Friendica instance if you have an account. Just hover your mouse over the like/dislike numbers, and you can see who upvoted/downvoted shit. You can even receive notifications about this on your own posts, just as on Facebook.
To me, it was funny back in the day to see all tankies brigading to downvote me on any single post or comment I made, the moment I started showing my political stances 😆 (yes, even stuff posted before that had no political stuff in them, lol). But yea. To some people, this might be a drawback.
The good thing, however, is that neither Kbin nor Friendica show you a centralized place in your profile to see what did you downvote. You just have to search every post you can find to see this info.
Makes me think…
Is there a plugin for like firefox, available which tracks what you write? Something which analyzes your output stream, or lets say, fetch all lemmy posts of a user and analyze how “easy” the writing patterns are and how easily the user is traceable via shadow linking multiple accounts etc.
I know in order to compare this data privacy violations are necessary, but I am genuinely interested in how ad companies are tracking myself and how easy I am to follow through patterns in my texts.
As far as I know, LLMs are not that clever yet, and it would require a lot of work to automate tracking of so many targets. But a dedicated person tracking one user can see these. Unknowingly, we leave a lot of cues to know who we are. Not only patterns, but exact word-markers, like calling something by a regional-accepted name. Like how my english teachers insisted London’s metro is called Tube.
Yeah I am not interested in criminal behaviour or personal threats. i know a human would be capable to extract much information if on purpose.
I am more interested in like temperature mapping of my text. From a statistical point of view If my patterns are behavioral and forecastable?
It’s mainly keywords at that point. This process is sure to have steps. To step into a suspected category, to be elevated into those who are to be studied closer, you should ring some alerts.
@andrew_bidlaw this feature request for KBin to change voting so it is NOT public from 5 months ago has a lot of examples of why public voting can be dangerous, but there doesn’t appear to be much interest in changing how this works in KBin or MBin.
Thank you for the link.
I can imagine a couple of ways it can be obfuscated, but here in your link I’ve been reminded ActivityPub also serves Mastodon, where interactions are way less impersonal by design.
Since there isn’t a Karma system i don’t think its a problem unless advertisers federate.
