I recently attended a lecture by retired Admiral James Stavridis, who among other things was the NATO supreme allied commander for 4 years. He explained how every soldier swears an oath to the US Constitution, and in many cases more than just once. Each time an officer is promoted they swear that oath again, so by the time you make something like admiral you’ve likely sworn that oath around ten times, and administered it countless times to others.
Even when Trump fired those members of the Joint Chiefs, those who replaced them will renew that oath if they receive promotions to fill that role. Stavridis also said that the JAG officers who were recently fired would be replaced through military promotions, triggering even more oaths.
While the military may indeed humor Trump with a parade, I’m not worried they would blindly obey an illegal order. If Trump ordered them to deploy across the US, to invade Greenland, etc. I think you would see the military leadership act in a way nobody in modern times has ever seen. I’m confident they would honor their oaths and not violate the law.
You seem to know a lot more about this than me but I struggle share your confidence.
Everything I know about military service I have learned from popular media, but it seems like “following orders” is a foundational principle. If orders contravene an oath you made to the constitution that would present a conundrum, but I suspect that “following orders” will always win. That’s the whole idea of an “order”, you’re not supposed to think about it and figure out whether or not you want to follow such a directive, and surely this is beaten in to servicemen and women every day ?
The gist of it is, the military defends the US constitution, not the president whims. Obviously, some may not see it that way, but if the general army changed direction each time the president changed, it would cause some problems.
Canada might crack the military into the faithful to the constitution vrs the loyal to maga.
Panama or Greenland I figure they would try to minimize loss of life but they would just do it. Blowing up your career for a symbolic gesture or risking civil war in a mass revolt wouldn’t be worth it.
(Some might give up their careers, the ones with high integrity, maybe a lot of command. But they would be replaced with loyalists)
Media is not a good place to learn about military life. If you are in the States, you might have a local VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars). The old guys in there will likely talk your ear off about their experiences, just don’t press for details about specific combat experience unless they broach the subject.
If you want to learn more about the military and their oath, from popular media sources, NCIS is the show to watch. It’s relatively accurate in it’s display of service life, and they cite the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) in what seems like every episode. Now that is the real bread and butter of a military members legal guidance. Every military member is keenly aware of that book, especially when deploying.
Source: A military veteran and friend of multiple military peeps from multiple branches, backgrounds, and countries. The depiction of mindless drones is far from accurate. They exist, just like you have shitty people at any job, but as someone else pointed out above here, the higher up the branch you go, the more left-leaning the soldier is. That’s why tRump had to appoint a complete dunce to DoD, and not someone with military background and scruples. You know that if tRump could get military support from upper command that he wouldn’t hesitate to post soldiers around him for every presser. He is a weak-man’s idea of a strong-man.
I mean isn’t the military flying the no due process death camp flights out sometimes at least? Is “to the death camp” a legal order? Seems like a slippery slope from there.
I believe the flights to El Salvador were private charters, not military. The earlier flights to Guantanamo would have been military, but even that isn’t clearly & blatantly illegal. Trump claimed legal authority based on an existing legal precedent (I forget which), and since military pilots are not lawyers they followed those orders. The flights stopped in part because of all the legal challenges in court (but also due to costs and other legal issues).
If anything, when ordered to fly these people to Guantanamo, the military probably turned to their JAG officers, who are lawyers, to ensure they weren’t illegal. They likely would have said the flights should go until the courts ruled on the matter.
Greenland is hard. They’d likely do it. It’s a legal order under the War Powers Act. They would probably do it in a completely different way than going full explodey like they did with Iraq, but it would happen.
Now they could drag their feet, super telegraphing their moves, effectively giving Congress time to use the WPA to shut it down. But it’s not guaranteed by any means.
Canada would see mass desertions though. And Mexico or Panama are actually the most likely targets. The military would invade those places without a second thought.
I recently attended a lecture by retired Admiral James Stavridis, who among other things was the NATO supreme allied commander for 4 years. He explained how every soldier swears an oath to the US Constitution, and in many cases more than just once. Each time an officer is promoted they swear that oath again, so by the time you make something like admiral you’ve likely sworn that oath around ten times, and administered it countless times to others.
Even when Trump fired those members of the Joint Chiefs, those who replaced them will renew that oath if they receive promotions to fill that role. Stavridis also said that the JAG officers who were recently fired would be replaced through military promotions, triggering even more oaths.
While the military may indeed humor Trump with a parade, I’m not worried they would blindly obey an illegal order. If Trump ordered them to deploy across the US, to invade Greenland, etc. I think you would see the military leadership act in a way nobody in modern times has ever seen. I’m confident they would honor their oaths and not violate the law.
You seem to know a lot more about this than me but I struggle share your confidence.
Everything I know about military service I have learned from popular media, but it seems like “following orders” is a foundational principle. If orders contravene an oath you made to the constitution that would present a conundrum, but I suspect that “following orders” will always win. That’s the whole idea of an “order”, you’re not supposed to think about it and figure out whether or not you want to follow such a directive, and surely this is beaten in to servicemen and women every day ?
The gist of it is, the military defends the US constitution, not the president whims. Obviously, some may not see it that way, but if the general army changed direction each time the president changed, it would cause some problems.
If the court says the presidents whims are constitutional then what happens?
Canada might crack the military into the faithful to the constitution vrs the loyal to maga.
Panama or Greenland I figure they would try to minimize loss of life but they would just do it. Blowing up your career for a symbolic gesture or risking civil war in a mass revolt wouldn’t be worth it.
(Some might give up their careers, the ones with high integrity, maybe a lot of command. But they would be replaced with loyalists)
Media is not a good place to learn about military life. If you are in the States, you might have a local VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars). The old guys in there will likely talk your ear off about their experiences, just don’t press for details about specific combat experience unless they broach the subject.
If you want to learn more about the military and their oath, from popular media sources, NCIS is the show to watch. It’s relatively accurate in it’s display of service life, and they cite the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) in what seems like every episode. Now that is the real bread and butter of a military members legal guidance. Every military member is keenly aware of that book, especially when deploying.
Source: A military veteran and friend of multiple military peeps from multiple branches, backgrounds, and countries. The depiction of mindless drones is far from accurate. They exist, just like you have shitty people at any job, but as someone else pointed out above here, the higher up the branch you go, the more left-leaning the soldier is. That’s why tRump had to appoint a complete dunce to DoD, and not someone with military background and scruples. You know that if tRump could get military support from upper command that he wouldn’t hesitate to post soldiers around him for every presser. He is a weak-man’s idea of a strong-man.
I mean isn’t the military flying the no due process death camp flights out sometimes at least? Is “to the death camp” a legal order? Seems like a slippery slope from there.
I believe the flights to El Salvador were private charters, not military. The earlier flights to Guantanamo would have been military, but even that isn’t clearly & blatantly illegal. Trump claimed legal authority based on an existing legal precedent (I forget which), and since military pilots are not lawyers they followed those orders. The flights stopped in part because of all the legal challenges in court (but also due to costs and other legal issues).
If anything, when ordered to fly these people to Guantanamo, the military probably turned to their JAG officers, who are lawyers, to ensure they weren’t illegal. They likely would have said the flights should go until the courts ruled on the matter.
Yeah, good thing oaths are magically self-enforcing and impossible to break. Otherwise we’d be fucked.
Greenland is hard. They’d likely do it. It’s a legal order under the War Powers Act. They would probably do it in a completely different way than going full explodey like they did with Iraq, but it would happen.
Now they could drag their feet, super telegraphing their moves, effectively giving Congress time to use the WPA to shut it down. But it’s not guaranteed by any means.
Canada would see mass desertions though. And Mexico or Panama are actually the most likely targets. The military would invade those places without a second thought.