The community c/libertyhub@lemmy.blahaj.zone states in the sidebar it’s a community for leftists and post leftists, but if you actually look at the posts the mods are making, it’s almost nothing but trolling and telling people not to vote in the general election.
This rhetoric is especially dangerous to trans people, who this instance is supposed to be a safe space for, and West Bank Palestinians. If the USA elects a fascist president, there is guaranteed to be multiple genocides of society’s most vulnerable groups, in addition to what the US is already doing in Gaza.
The mods on Liberty Hub openly troll their users and ban people for advocating left wing or harm reducing positions. The only action that is allowed on the sub is advocating political inaction in the face of genocide, taking a centrist position with regards to open fascism.
This community has absolutely no place on Blahaj Zone and should be removed by the admins.
I’m not going to remove a community for pushing back against a system that forces them to vote for genocide.
I don’t think that not voting is the answer, but I also don’t think that me telling people they’re not allowed to feel differently is the answer. The majority of the people in that community will be forced to live with the consequences of their votes. They will be directly targeted by Trump. And if they still feel that pushing back against genocide in Palestine is more important than the consequences of Trump on their very own personal safety, I’m not going to stand in the way of that.
This isn’t outside trolls and agitators. This is a community of folk, directly in the line of fire, choosing to stand there for a cause they see as important. As long as their intentions are genuine (which I believe they are), It’s not my place to tell them that they’re not allowed to take that stand.
That being said, I am going to reach out to the staff there, and address the insults and the like being thrown at other users. It’s against both the community rules, and against the Blahaj Zone Community Guidelines.
There’s a difference between taking a stand that will harm themselves, and taking a stand that will harm everyone else as well while preventing others from taking a stand against them.
There is no harm free choice here.
Pledging to vote for someone despite the genocide means they have no incentive to stop the genocide. That is the more dangerous stance.
Ballots are secret. There is no way to prove how you voted once the ballot is sumbmitted. The optimal play is to make a lot of noise saying that your vote is contingent on an end to the genocide, even if that isn’t how you actually vote on election day.
Pledging to vote for biden at this point is encouragement. Why would he do anything about palestine if he knows you’re going to vote for him anyway?
You might be clever enough to walk that fine line, but the average voter is not. They hear “don’t vote for Biden” and they believe you. Expecting to trick the president and not trick the millions of other people who need to vote against fascism for fascism not to happen, is impossible.
You’re playing chicken with fascism. You’re spreading fascist propaganda to voters while the DNC threatens the same and hoping the other one blinks first. But you and I have a lot more to lose from fascism than those rich white people do, and they’re not going to blink. Your threats of fascism are going to come true.
They have no incentive either way. Either Biden wins and stays the course, or Trump wins and… well…
Pledging to vote for someone despite the genocide means they have no incentive to stop the genocide. That is the more dangerous stance.
Bullshit, it’s the least dangerous stance!
- You can vote for Biden and have him fail to stop the genocide
- You can vote for Trump and have him enthusiastically support and egg on the genocide
- You can vote third-party and have Trump enthusiastically support and egg on the genocide
Those are your choices. Pretending that there’s some choice other than voting for Biden that causes less harm is a DELUSIONAL LIE, end of!
Assume people make rational choices. When a president is elected, especially for a 2nd term, then they have little to no incentive to actually listen to the voters. It fucking sucks, but that is how the system works. Election time is literally the only time we can push meaningful change.
When election day comes, I think people we rationally understand that Trump is a greater danger both to Palastine and to the trans community and vote accordingly.
If I agree that there is no value in not voting, then I feel you should be able to recognize that there is value in SAYING you are not voting. To me, it’s far more likely that the people in that community know this fact instead of somehow not recognizing the danger of Trump.
Assume people make rational choices.
Why? I don’t think people have earned that much faith. People elected Trump in 2016 and I think they might well do it again.
People elected Trump in 2016 and I think they might well do it again.
And do you think those are the same people are on blahaj? That support palastine enough to protest? Do you really think its more likely those people will just stand by and let the situation get worse under Trump?
The ones who are more on the left are exactly the ones who are less inclined to vote, so yes.
The number of far leftist that didn’t vote in some form of protest, is absolutely miniscule compared to the number of Republicans that did vote for Trump.
You’re mad at the wrong group. These people are not any legitimate threat to Biden electability. I understand the fear, nihilism and anger at the possibility of another Trump term, I’m feeling all that too, but this topic just doesn’t seem like a productive place to put energy. Between the electoral college and gerrymandering, where voting blue quite literally will do nothing. Like myself, I live in a deep blue state. I’m going to vote for Biden, but my girlfriend is not. In partiality, neither of these choices matter because we know for a fact the state is going blue just like it has for decades.
So a couple hundred people saying they won’t vote, and a percentage of them actually will vote, shouldn’t be something to be worked up about or a community that needs to be banned.
Idk. You do you. But this just seems like an unhealthy outlet for healthy frustration.
The open conservatives aren’t the ones posting on Blahaj and telling trans people to vote for our own genocide. I’m never going to convince a Truth Social user that Trump is a lying rapist criminal traitor to his country. But it should be possible to remove those kinds of posts from an instance that is supposed to be trans friendly.
I fail to see how that community is pushing back against any system by repeating the same tired talking points that dissuade people from voting.
And that’s s perfectly reasonable perspective. But it’s not a reason to moderate or ban the community…
Quickly going through the modlog of that community I’ve found these three comments that were removed for no other reason than they didn’t align with what some mod thinks, along with a lot of people who were banned with the reason “liberal”.
I don’t even agree with these comments, but that doesn’t matter. You’re willing to host that community to give them a voice, while the mods stifle dissent and ban anyone who disagrees.
I am not willing to exclude trans and queer folk over a difference of opinion, when those opinions are genuinely held, and on issues that directly impact them.
I am not going to tell queer folk that there is a right or a wrong way to deal with the rising tide of bigotry, racism and intolerance we are all facing.
As long as the their community rules live up to the instance community guidelines, they’re allowed to moderate on their own terms.
I get that you see me as “giving them a voice”, and I guess, ultimately it is. But that’s because the goal of blahaj zone is to create a space for trans and queer voices. And that’s what those voices are.
Is there any procedure for when a community enforces different rules from the rules in their sidebar? And when the rules in the sidebar live up to the instance terms, but the real rules do not?
As long as they’re not ignoring the instance guidelines, I’m not going to get involved in issues regarding moderation of individual communities. If people are unhappy with the mods, they will just go elsewhere. I’m not in the business of telling moderators how to run communities they’re more connected to than I am.
If the community or its mods are ignoring the instance community guidelines though, then I want to know about it, because that will get dealt with.
I worry this leaves the door wide open for troll communities to operate with near impunity as long as they all lie consistently enough about their intentions
So pardon me, but it seems like you are saying I could spread actual Nazi ideology as long as I claimed to be trans?
Did you read the instance guidelines? Because that’s pretty clearly incompatible.
Ok but that is essentially what’s happening.
Counterpoint - this is absolutely a community of outside agitators and it was very obvious from day 1.
Have you tried blocking the community instead of interacting with it? There’s plenty of communities I block because I think they’re dumb and annoying, or because the moderation team is a train wreck.
“It’s transphobic to think Joe Biden is a genocide enabling asshole because that means you support not voting for him which means you support Trump getting elected which means you support transphobic policies and this should be banned from Blahaj” is a series of assumptions built on assumptions, most of which are bad faith and work backwards from wanting the community banned. Demanding a trans admin ban them for transphobia when what you want them banned for is bad politics is tasteless at best, and comes off as manipulative.
Before anyone gets a bug up their ass about if I vote blue enough, I live in a large city in California. We are more likely to see the sun explode than for my elector to vote for anyone other than a Democrat, which I think is ultimately the least bad option that is likely to happen between now and November (but is still a bad system because we need ranked choice).
Man, why didn’t I think of preventing political propaganda from reaching people by ignoring it. What a good idea!
Memes from someone whose takes you don’t like isn’t the same thing as propaganda and it certainly doesn’t make the community transphobic. If you can’t live with seeing it, block it. There is real, honest to god, paid for with billionaire cash political propaganda targeting trans people out there, and that community ain’t it.
propaganda noun
1 : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions 2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person 3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one’s cause or to damage an opposing cause also : a public action having such an effect
Idead spread for the purpose of furthering a cause. I think Liberty Hub’s anti-voting posts meet both definition 2 and definition 3. (Merriam Webster)
2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
This post is propaganda, time to take it down, your rules not mine 🤷♂️
Yes, this post is propaganda. If you look closely at what I’ve been saying I don’t have a moral opposition to propaganda. What I’m saying is propaganda needs to be taken seriously beyond the individual. This post isn’t transphobic trolling, which is the thing I actually want removed.
Maybe you could link and report some of the transphobic trolling? That would speed along its removal. All the links I saw just had political memes.
Ada already cleaned it up. That’s why the link in my post doesn’t work.
Counterpoint - these communities are a big part of a concerted right wing effort to divide the left by pushing an extremely insular and extremist version of left wing self parody. A lot of well meaning people buy into it initially and then don’t have the moral courage to step away from it when they are shown its extremist side. That’s why it is not very effective and very dangerous.
You are starting from a bad faith assumption and demanding everyone else do the same. The result is that queer people who don’t like Joe Biden (for very understandable reasons) can’t have any space to talk about that without being called propaganda and right wing trolls. You don’t seem to want the content to exist at all, rather than looking for specific evidence that this user or mod team is part of a right wing effort.
Blocking communities and users only makes bad actors more powerful because there are fewer voices pushing back against them. It’s the internet version of sticking your head in the sand because you don’t have the courage to confront evil.
Someone isn’t evil because they think Joe Biden is enabling genocide and that he sucks, Jesus. Y’all need to learn to be okay with other queer people not having your exact politics. Aim that kind of rhetoric and energy at people that are actually bigoted instead of just tearing down other queer people.
Removed by mod
Okay, Ada had clearly said she doesn’t think that’s the case and you’ve offered zero proof other than random accusations, so I don’t think there’s any productive conversation to be had here.
What do you want, a secret post saying “haha here is my evil plan to subvert democracy by dividing the left!”
After going on over for a look around I agree with you.
Not voting is horrendously dangerous for the most vulnerable groups especially in this upcoming election.
Tbh I think the guy drank the flavor aid. I saw how that dude started out and iirc he started with more reasonable political stances; but he’s gone way off the rails. If he’s who I think he is, then I feel kinda feel bad for him. He wasn’t always like this.
Yeah, I’ve personally had them tagged as “leftist trump bot” since interacting with that sub once and getting banned immediately. I’ve since seen them post sane stuff elsewhere on the fediverse and was surprised as within that sub they seem completely unhinged.
I’d had a few conversations with them before they came to blahaj, and I agree that I feel bad seeing how it’s gone since then. I miss their attitude from earlier, in that sort of “I hope my friend is okay but I’m worried we no longer have a relationship where I can help” kind of vibe
deleted by creator
I was originally gonna say “Kool aid” since that’s the normal expression, but I decided to be historically accurate instead.
I’ve been in that community pushing to reluctantly vote for Biden and I haven’t been banned! In fact, I don’t see a ton of “don’t vote for Biden” stuff, mostly just “Biden sucks” stuff. Perhaps you’re dividing things into sides to aggressively.
I agree they’re a little trolly and definitely inflame, which I don’t like, but calling it transphobic requires quite the leap of logic.
Here’s a post where that mod actually advocates voting for Biden. He also hates Biden and levies plenty of valid criticisms. These are not mutually exclusive.
Meanwhile, OP is making some pretty gross transphobic jokes about suicide on .world
https://lemmy.ca/comment/10095468
It’s disgusting. You’re telling people that if they’re opposing a genocide, they might as well kill themselves.
Making fun of people who try to shame me into killing myself is my coping mechanism for being shamed and told to kill myself. I agree, it’s gross that such a situation has even arisen. But it’s not like ignoring transphobia is going to help.
You’re the one making transphobic jokes about suicide in that thread
No I’m not.
I’m a trans person that has struggled with suicidal thoughts/depression for a long time. I also oppose genocide, although I don’t like telling people how to vote.
Your ‘joke’ has a pretty clear message to people like me, and I don’t like it. But I see it very often. I don’t really mind when it’s from some alt right bro on reddit, but it hurts a little more coming from a queer space.
You should find other ways of making your point, or else you’re just doing a more wordy 48% meme.
It seems you’ve already made up your mind that deconstructing and condemning transphobia is transphobic, so maybe it would be best for your mental health if you avoided posts where we tell transphobes to fuck off.
You are really terrible. I don’t like telling personal details online, but I thought maybe it would help you see that you’re being insensitive. Instead, you just imply that I’m crazy and transphobic.
Would you understand the meme better is the used the SpongeBob meme to relay their sarcasm in that post. I’m trans and get the joke they are trying to make. People that say don’t vote are privileged or ignorant of the harm that trump will do to everyone that’s not white, straight, and well off financially.
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit
Neither subtext nor empathy are yours
You’re literally telling the person who was being attacked that they’re transphobic you soggy napkin
How were they attacked? I missed that part
No lmao
Oh yeah, that community is horrible. I saw a ton of their posts popping up on my feed and made a comment on there before blocking it (some question about the heavy advocacy for voter apathy) and was immediately banned.
I got banned there for staying I thought I was on hexbear
They’re fascists with a leftist coat of paint, and anyone who thinks they should be allowed to propagate their views is complicit in their efforts to maximize harm.
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone I’ve been banned from Liberty Hub as of 9 hours ago. My only interaction with the sub lately is this post here and the comment I left in the linked thread. The ban reason is “off topic”, which is not a Liberty Hub or Blahaj rule. 9 hours ago is also when the thread I linked seems to have been deleted by the Liberty Hub mods, and was replaced with another thread with a near-identical image and near-identical title. The only motivation for the ban I can see is for criticising the community, and the only motivation for deleting the post I can see is to hide evidence of the behaviour I describe in the post.
Liberty Hub’s 8th rule is that open discussion should be encouraged and bad faith attacks should be prevented. I believe a moderator is breaking their own community’s rules in their moderator actions, while banning users for reasons that have nothing to do with the community rules. If Liberty Hub’s stated rules have nothing to do with the actions taken by moderators, then there can be no oversight from the admin team to prevent instance rule violations. I believe the guideline of empathy has already been broken, and has been broken on an ongoing basis for months. The moderators of this community have gone rogue. They are not respecting the instance or even their own community’s values.
Eh, maybe not ban, but like, remind them that this a community space, and that they should moderate and remove commenters/posters who are being actively toxic or harassing people for disagreeing.
Like, I’m not fan of Biden or the neoliberal order, but what is going on there isn’t doing anything constructive. Even if they don’t intend it, the way that space is moderated, it’s a potential harbor for bad faith trolls.
It is all spite, no solutions or discussions of means of action. Just “we sure do hate this particular side of the two ruling parties.”
You assume they are operating in good faith. This is the same harm maximization formula the_Donald used to spew hate on reddit for so long. You cannot just give bad actors infinite chances to figure out how you can be soothed and manipulated. You need to cut the cancer out while it is young cancer.
The community is not made up of transphobes or accelerationists so there is no problem. I don’t post or comment there because I don’t see the point in taking the time to write or make something for an echo chamber that will just remove my comment or post. But just because I don’t agree with every take in that community doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value.
Yes, this place was very obviously a right wing propaganda community from the first day I saw it. It’s amazing so many otherwise smart leftists and progressives continue to fall for this mindless contrarian nonsense. These are trolls trying to divide us, and it’s incredibly obvious to me.
I appreciate the recommendation, that sounds like a fun community!
Not voting is only dangerous if you assume the non-voters would otherwise side with your favored candidate.
Favored is a strong word here imho. Very few people want Biden, it seems to me. Also, in a leftist community, I’d hope the choice between a neoliberal and a fascist would be obvious. I hate neoliberalism as much as the next socialist, but I shudder at the thought of the impact Trump with project 2025 in hand would have on the world.
