- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
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It’s strange to me that the differences are so vast between different continents.
I know litteraly no one who actually uses iMessage. Never once (in recent years) seen some communicate through a channel that isn’t WhatsApp, Signal or something similar. The whole “ew, green bubbles” drama just isn’t a thing here. (Though the existence of iPhone users still harms society in different ways)
Though I do agree with many commenters that the EU caving to the lobbyists is a bad thing. Having the law only apply to “problems that are big enough to care about” is still a loss for the consumer in the end. I’m all for standardisation and free choice, which means any commercial messaging service should comply. Exceptions only for open source projects funded by non-profit organisations.
It’s also funny that Apple phones are seen as an “old people” thing because they’re for simpletons, let’s be honest
Apple’s whole modern “it’s reliable and just works” cult following exists because they found a fix for situations where the problem was between keyboard and chair.
Both Windows and Linux-based operating systems are plenty reliable if you actually know what you’re doing and you know how things work. Apple started a culture where you don’t need to know how things work because you have no influence over your own devices. Which lets people do the simple tasks without adressing the problem that your userbase will not amass any computing knowledge whatsoever.
And when Apple devices do fail (and trust me, they do), they fail catastrophically without a way to fix the problem yourself (which is by design).
The distinction is larger for computers than it is for mobile devices, but yeah in general Apple devices are for simpletons. But the biggest issue is that Apple’s design philosophy actively creates these simpletons.
Oh cock off. My home network has seven windows machines and three Linux machines. I love iOS because I fuck around with computers all day, I’m not into fucking around with my phone. I want a secure device that lasts a long time, stays extremely fast, and requires no fucking. My five year old iPhone matches all of this perfectly.
As an android owner, I am pretty sure I haven’t fucked any of my phones… Yet.
I don’t use google products or services, so if I had an Android phone I’d have to fuck around with de-Googling and custom ROMs and all that, which I’m not willing to do.
Glad you found an incredibly niche exception to my generalisation lol
Most of my mates who are in tech have iPhones as well. It’s not that niche. It’s a great, fast phone with one-click incremental encrypted image backups so if something fucks up, you’re given a new one and in minutes it’s the exact same phone as the dead one, with zero fucking around.
My brother in Christ, if you have a home network with 7 Windows and 3 Linux machines, you don’t have any mates 😂😂
Airdrop is the “blue bubble” thing where I am. When we’re traveling to poor signal areas (hiking, scuba diving, etc) the iPhone folks share the pictures they took with Airdrop. The Android folks just need to wait for it in whatsapp. And until recently, those pics in whatsapp are compressed to heck.
Android also has “airdrop”. It’s called “nearby share”. Works weekly l exactly the same way so there’s no need to WhatsApp it. You can share it right there with all android users.
Look on your phone settings. There’s also going to be a nearby share quick toggle if you want to turn it on and off manually.
Also press “share” on a photo and nearby share will be an option. Press it and try it out and learn it.
I’m not saying the feature doesn’t exist. I’m just saying that is what happening around me. Even though our community doesn’t use imessage, Android is still the red haired stepchild.
It just means you are around more iphone folks than android. If roles were reversed, android users could share photos using nearby share, or even nfc which is at least a decade old by now, and neither is compatible with ios.
Why not use Bluetooth?
It’s funny to me that someone now has to say in an Apple boardroom every so often:
“So how do we make sure this isn’t too successful in the EU?”
I kinda understand it, because iMessage is completely irrelevant outside the US. It still sucks, bacuse more choice and less lock in is always better for consumers.
So the EU grew some balls and then lopped one off, how disappointing…
To be honest I don’t know anyone in Europe using iMessages. We are using Viber, WhatsApp, Messenger, Signal, Telegram, Threema, etc. and none of those options are iOS or Android exclusive.
iMessage is a typical American thing which, we Europeans, have a really hard time comprehending what is the obsession with it.
And we also have a much bigger Android market share, so it would be stupid for iOS users to use some messaging app, that would be iOS exclusive.
iMessage is a typical American thing which, we Europeans, have a really hard time comprehending what is the obsession with it.
To help you comprehend - the big difference is SMS has been free for a long long time in the USA. No other text messaging service has ever been able to get off the ground because why on earth would anyone sign up for Viber / WatsApp / Messenger / Signal / Telegram / Threema / etc, when you could just use SMS which works fine and works for everyone?
Then iMessage came along, and you could keep using “SMS”, only now it’s more reliable, has high resolution photos, delivery confirmation, etc. That was a real improvement over SMS, with no cost at all other than having to stay on the iPhone platform, which you were already on, and who’s going to switch? You’ve got all these apps you found/like and who knows which ones work on Android?
Also, it’s not just the USA. iMessage is big in other markets too. Also ones where SMS has historically been free. The cost of having to pay to send SMS between London/Paris is a pain we never really experienced here, so there was no motivation to try WhatsApp/etc.
Woah. What a great explanation. I legitimately never understood the deal with iMessage too and you made a logical explanation that clicks. Thank you.
The US can’t even stop robocalls
I think it’s some kind of flex they like about blue or green bubbles. Somehow they are just behind on tech in the common man’s world. I remember when the world was on smartphon/cool gadgety phones pre first iphone, I was in America and most people still used black and white simple phones. They thought it was cool if some phone model had a few extra ringtones…
here in the US in my situation it boils down to my parents/grandparents not being able to understand the difference between any texting application. I’m fine using SMS/iMessage because I know everyone has it. I’d say the vast majority of non-technologically savvy people I know are incapable or unsure how to use the basic functions of their phone (very few people I know in this category use their phone for anything else but calls, texts, and the web browser; everything else is just unused for either lack of understanding or lack of interest).
The US never moved past SMS for instant messaging. iMessage extends SMS seamlessly (to iOS users).
Honestly i tried using different apps with different people groups and ended up dumping all of those apps over time since they 1) sucked battery and 2) weren’t that great and 3) were either ad-supported or were free with questions on what they company was doing to stay afloat.
iMessage solves all of these issues without needing to explain anything. Occasionally i will laugh when i see granny (liked this message) knowing she uses android and had to type that out but whatever.
Occasionally i will laugh when i see granny (liked this message) knowing she uses android and had to type that out but whatever.
Actually, that’s just another example of Apple’s shittiness. When you see that, that’s not someone typing it out, that’s when an Android user uses a reaction on our side.
Which should speak volumes to you, iOS was perfectly capable of understanding what an Android phone sent, but instead of simply matching it to an applicable iOS reaction (Or even just defaulting to a thumbs up or whatever), it just…does that.
The funny part is that on the Android side when an iOS/iMessage user a reaction it does exactly what you’d expect, it matches it to the applicable Android reaction lmao
No sometimes it’s misspelled.
So it’s a granny problem, not an OS problem
NO one cares about iMessage here, legislate yourselves.
It doesn’t have a big enough footprint to regulate it in such a way, it’s entirely practical not to do anything.
Damn. Good burn! I wish my legislators would do something good…
The EU made a law this way specifically to only affect the biggest gatekeepers, so that megacorps can’t use it to further entrench their own monopolies. Nobody gives a fuck about iMessage in the EU.
iMessage really is just mostly used in the US, like Japan with Line. Most countries around the world don’t use any SMS(or adjacent) services for chatting. So its not really a priority when people barely use it. Unlike the AppStore where every Apple user is forced to use it anyway
The article says that Apple is still planning on making iMessage compatible with RCS, but isn’t Apple’s incentive gone if there’s no longer any EU pressure? How likely is it that Apple will cancel their RCS plans?
There’s still plenty of EU pressure. This was a close enough thing that the EU spent months investigating it before making a decision.
That sends a pretty clear message to Apple “we’re OK with what you’re doing with messaging right now, but only just barely”. If Apple does something the EU doesn’t like, new legislation can be written.
There’s also pressure in the USA and other countries where iMessage is far more widely used. The pressure hasn’t gone anywhere yet, but it definitely could. The USA came down hard on Ma Bell when they dominated the phone industry. They’re so dead most people have forgotten they existed. They were arguably the biggest company in the entire world at the time. Just like Apple is now.
Part of the order against Ma Bell was to order the company to stop selling phones. Imagine if the USA did that again, with Apple this time. I listened to an interview with an antitrust regulator in the USA yesterday (Decoder podcast)… he said they’re short staffed and rely on punitive damages so harsh that other companies choose voluntary compliance, removing the need to actually regulate the whole industry (they don’t have enough people to do that). Pretty scary stuff - the EU’s approach is far gentler.
“we’re OK with what you’re doing with messaging right now, but only just barely”. If Apple does something the EU doesn’t like, new legislation can be written.
Because of the “only just barely” part, new legislation might not even be necessary.
If Apple only narrowly avoided falling under the core platform definition, just a change in market share might be enough for that to change under the existing rules.
Can’t apple do something good for a change and adopt Matrix?
You joke, but Matrix has been working on protocol design specifically for the Digital Markets Act. If iMessage were to be ruled subject to the DMA, it might mean Apple having to interoperate with (a future version of) Matrix.
(The DMA part of that talk starts at 25:00.)
I don’t like Matrix, but that’d be an improvement.
(It supports bridging anyway, so one could use an XMPP-Matrix bridge and a Matrix-crapland bridge simultaneously)
What’s wrong with Matrix?
From practice - performance of clients and of servers too.
From emotion - it uses Web technologies.
From some logic maybe - if they are doing something new, then why not distributed architecture like Tox (at least identities not tied to servers), and if they choose something architecturally similar to XMPP, why not use XMPP.
However, emotion again, I really like Matrix APIs, these are definitely designed to be used by anyone at all.
Oh no! Web based protocol! Not stability, ease of debugging, less block rate, and easy SSL protection! The horror!!
Not stability,
What does this even mean in the context of data you’d transfer in Matrix?
ease of debugging
Ease in which context? What’s so much harder to which you are comparing it?
less block rate,
Are you certain that something TCP-based gives that? Latency sucks too.
and easy SSL protection
PKI is crap. Just saying. Easy and wrong.
The horror!!
Nobody said that.
And such an esteemed thing as Gnutella uses Web technologies.
I just don’t like it. It’s my opinion. Just as you have yours.
What does this even mean in the context of data you’d transfer in Matrix?
It means it’s a robust well-tested protocol (referring to HTTP)
Ease in which context? What’s so much harder to which you are comparing it?
It’s a robust, well tested, and well known protocol.
Are you certain that something TCP-based gives that? Latency sucks too.
Average company firewall: Allow 80 Allow 443 Allow 53 to <internal DNS server> Deny to any
PKI is crap. Just saying. Easy and wrong.
What’s the better solution?
I just don’t like it. It’s my opinion. Just as you have yours.
Yeah it has a lot of problems, but all the things you listed are the least of it. Still better than anything else.
YESSSS! Let’s hope apple does have to adopt this, it would be so helpful when communicating with apple users
It is only a suggestion. Like, if a gatekeeper wants to actually become open and adopt a protocol here we are showing you the path. But Apple is not like that, they would do absolute minimum and propably even less.
Not going to happen. How do you think they became 2.000.000.000.000 + company? D finitely by not letting their customers off the hook.
They might earn some respect from people who use android, and they might buy an iPhone
lmao
how are they supposed to keep up with microsoft with an open messaging standard? can’t miss out on being the most valuable company with a market cap at more than 3 trillion dollars…
Apple has announced they are adding RCS support.
RCS is not an open standard and is partially owned by Google.
As if Play Store + App Store duopoly was not enough of a headacke for everyday living, now I would need to explain myself of not using iMessage or Google Messages.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The iMessage service did meet the definition of a “core platform,” serving at least 45 million EU users monthly and being controlled by a firm with at least 75 billion euros in market capitalization.
But after “a thorough assessment of all arguments” during a five-month investigation, the Commission found that iMessage and Microsoft’s Bing search, Edge browser, and ad platform “do not qualify as gatekeeper services.”
While Apple has agreed to take up RCS, an upgraded form of carrier messaging with typing indicators and better image and video quality, it will not provide encryption for Android-to-iPhone SMS, nor remove the harsh green coloring that particularly resonates with younger users.
Apple is still obligated to comply with the Digital Markets Act’s other implications on its iOS operating system, its App Store, and its Safari browser.
While it’s unlikely to result in the same kind of action, Brendan Carr, a commissioner at the Federal Communications Commission, said at a conference yesterday that the FCC “has a role to play” in investigating whether Apple’s blocking of the Beeper Mini app violated Part 14 rules regarding accessibility and usability.
The blocking and workarounds continued until Beeper announced that it was shifting its focus away from iMessage and back to being a multi-service chat app, minus one particular service.
The original article contains 589 words, the summary contains 214 words. Saved 64%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
If RCS is such an awesome standard, why not mandate it for all EU phones? Apple already supports the current standard, which is SMS. The idea that they have to open up their proprietary software seems silly to me.
Lol, Lmao even. All regulators have had their teeth pulled.
Such a stupid law. People can already use open services like matrix but they don’t because they don’t give a fuck. Now we force services to open up… Why? People have a choice already. As much as i hate facebook this is kinda nuts
Network effects. The law lets me not install Facebook Messenger just to chat with my mom and Whatsapp just to chat with my some random corporate account, and instead use whatever messenger I want to chat with both of them. I wouldn’t have a choice otherwise.
It’s a great law, IMHO. It keeps monopolistic companies from gatekeeping services essential to modern life.
This choice is just in theory. Like Cory Doctorow said, you and your close friend circle cannot agree where to eat launch today, how the heck are you going to agree on which chat app to switch to? I got my choice and deleted Facebook, no looking back, but guess what? I missed A LOT of information from my collage including many meetings.
With this law, people would no longer need to bother any of their friends to install anything, they could start switching one by one to what they like.
The interoperability thing is a trash idea from the beginning
Why?
Imagine secure apps being forced to give some parts of their users data to proprietary apps. Besides its too tricky to implement, like every app would be forced to use the same protocol as the proprietary app (specifically in messaging)
Proprietary messaging is worse though. Email is interoperable and relevant as ever. Just nobody bothered to seamlessly apply PGP for encryption (probably spy agencies actively worked against that too).
