i agree, however, historically speaking. overthrowing any government without a population already educated and akin to your ideals always leads to civil war and authoritarianism, or fascism, depending on who wins. and i just dont think we can ignore history, and should learn from the mistakes of the past. the US empire mathematically/economically speaking has always been doomed to fail, and its easily arguable that the last two decades have been a showcase of that collapse.
empire is the highest form of capitalism, and it will always lead to its eventual demise, and the timeline varies. in my opinion the US empire is already dead, its just convulsing, and likely will for many years to come. marx predicted this nearly two centuries ago. the roman empire didnt collapse over night, it took decades before they planted a figurative cross over its grave. we have to be careful as we are not the only ideology trying to birth something new from its corpse. and we cannot do that without the overwhelming support of the people who understand the full potential of the new system. and the steps it takes to get there.
i do love the romantisized/fetishized version of revolution as much as the next armchair socialist intellectual, but the reality of our world dictates that if we do not have a cohesive movement with a very solid plan for at least dipping the toes of those radically opposed to socialism, to the positives of socialism, through things like free healthcare, as one example or “flag” to get behind. then we can very likely end up with even more fascist imperialism and a new full blown holocaust that dwarfs the one growing in the US as we speak. and perhaps more likely, techno feudalism, rather than scientific socialism. its all kind of up in the air at the moment it seems.
i personally cannot think of any american candidates with enough momentum to actually garner that level of support for pure socialism in the time needed to implement it. and the biggest mistakes of communists and socialists of the past is the assumption that things/people will just automatically align with their ideology over night without showing them what socialism can be, or how to achieve it without terrifying the fence sitting population through violence. and how to actually maintain it after the fact. the communist/socialist international movements drastically underestimate the abilities of nations to undermine the education of their own people, the demonisation of socialism, and the systematic safety nets that they were willing to put in place to preserve capitalism, monarchy, and other systems of concentrated power. which also corrupted communist and socialist movements in the past.
im not saying we should have to bet on Bernie or AOC, but i currently just dont know of anyone else with enough sway, notoriety, or momentum that would tip the scales back in the direction of the people, even for a temporary repreive from unchecked capitalism (or a softer landing from its demise). or someone who actually has a realistic opportunity to hold that position and maintain it successfully. and also, bring “#realsocialism” to the masses without internal corruption, in the face of a population that doesnt understand how that system is supposed to work, or what its supposed to look like. let alone lead an uncorruptable vanguard movement on an international scale. obviously im speaking on one western front in the US, for what is a global class war. but we cant ignore the minutia when discussing these matters.
when lenin took power he had to make compromises to his vision to accomodate reality (state capitalism being one of them). theory and vision are wonderful. but you have to get up everyday and work towards those achievements, and it always requires sacrifice. working with people you dont like, dont agree with, etc. lenin and trotsky disagreed on their visions of socialism and communism (slightly), and had stalin been removed before he corrupted the inner circle with promises of power, and not tricked trotsky (and maybe poisoned lenin(he died after a series of strokes after stalin isolated trostky during a “vacation for his well being” and he missed lenins funeral and will reading)) then trotsky would have likely taken over. and we would have had a ussr that was a single party marxist state, with internal democracy for its leading members, with central planning. likely less political violence than stalin, but much more aggressive about international revolution rather than (relatively) contained nationialist revoltion. had lenin lived its likely he would have had a loose leadership structure within a one party system, similar to trotsky’s vision, at least in terms of organized international movements to promote socialism and communism.
however. all the above systems mentioned by these revolutionary communists/socialists ended with consolidation of power, and either nationalist control, and domestic political violence, but likely also empirical domination to some degree. these were movements that were born out of violence, and the echos of that violence effect us to this day. (russia/ukraine)
social democracy may be a slower paced ideology to bring around socialism, its far less revolutionary, and it does have massive flaws as well. but if you want to believe that real socialism is an overnight affair, its just simply not. its far too complex to implicate through revolution without authoritarianism and corruption at its heel, read any history book, or even the writings of all the communisr/socialist revolutionaries. marx, lenin, trotsky, che guevera, ho chi minh, mao, and their inspirations.
the core ideology and theory of the system is noble, but it has glaring issues that need to be addressed by a democratic collective. when marx spoke about a dictatorship of the proletariate, this is in part what he meant. that the working class would collectively choose how to run society, and abolish private productive property, for the good of the proletariate, to oversimplify his narrative. mao thought the peasantry was a more stable bet than the proletariate, and honestly he was right, at least for a revolutionary guerilla army that worked in tandem with regular forces that he used to attain power in china.
but its the destruction of the systems brought by revolution that ends up killing millions of the people the new system is meant to save. this is a hard pill to swallow. and so, we have a few choices.
repeat the same pattern, create a single party system, use authoritarian strategies to destroy the former ruling class and loyalists, disrupting supply chains and causing mass starvation, which eventually will be protested at the very least, which you subdue with military force, secret police, surveillance. etc. and this is post violent revolution, which could take decades complete, if it ever succeeds, which it wont without the support of the people.
or we can implement an alternate system within the existing system, undermining it, using technology they didnt have access to. to convince the working class the world over to realise the values that are innate in their existence and labour, and the extraction that takes place from the moment they wake, to the moment they go to sleep. and even now, while they sleep. working bit by bit to hand “digital pamphlets” to bring about mass class conciousness, and allow the demonstration of the worlds former greatest capitalist state inevitable collapse as a rallying call for massive socialist resurgance.
we need (technically have) a new digital international movement that rides the wave of capitalistic collapse as a prime example and driving force of the glaringly obvious benefits of a new modern socialism, perhaps one that doesnt need to implicate or maintain itself with as much violence as it has in the past. as we have new ways of reaching hearts and minds these days. but of course that is wishful thinking, as im sure it will likely be quite violent no matter the path we take to achieve equality, and dismantle the global structures made over the centuries by the ruling elite, and bring them to justice. formal, or informal
i just suggest that we use the information of the past to design a better system, with a more organized, and better educated force while we bide our time and prepare. and take whatever small boons that even slightly aligned US social democrats might produce in the meantime. it just seems like a more realistic probability considering the momentum/state of one front in the revolution in the US and abroad.
if you want to advocate for your personal version of what you define as real socialism, as there are many iterations of socialism. and how to achieve it. id love to hear what you think would be the ideal structure and implimentation? im sure we cant be that far off from eachother lol.
i am always willing to listen and learn, and challenge my own opinions and biases. im aware of the gaps in my logic and knowledge, so feel free to try and see if yours will fit.
i agree, however, historically speaking. overthrowing any government without a population already educated and akin to your ideals always leads to civil war and authoritarianism, or fascism, depending on who wins. and i just dont think we can ignore history, and should learn from the mistakes of the past. the US empire mathematically/economically speaking has always been doomed to fail, and its easily arguable that the last two decades have been a showcase of that collapse.
empire is the highest form of capitalism, and it will always lead to its eventual demise, and the timeline varies. in my opinion the US empire is already dead, its just convulsing, and likely will for many years to come. marx predicted this nearly two centuries ago. the roman empire didnt collapse over night, it took decades before they planted a figurative cross over its grave. we have to be careful as we are not the only ideology trying to birth something new from its corpse. and we cannot do that without the overwhelming support of the people who understand the full potential of the new system. and the steps it takes to get there.
i do love the romantisized/fetishized version of revolution as much as the next armchair socialist intellectual, but the reality of our world dictates that if we do not have a cohesive movement with a very solid plan for at least dipping the toes of those radically opposed to socialism, to the positives of socialism, through things like free healthcare, as one example or “flag” to get behind. then we can very likely end up with even more fascist imperialism and a new full blown holocaust that dwarfs the one growing in the US as we speak. and perhaps more likely, techno feudalism, rather than scientific socialism. its all kind of up in the air at the moment it seems.
i personally cannot think of any american candidates with enough momentum to actually garner that level of support for pure socialism in the time needed to implement it. and the biggest mistakes of communists and socialists of the past is the assumption that things/people will just automatically align with their ideology over night without showing them what socialism can be, or how to achieve it without terrifying the fence sitting population through violence. and how to actually maintain it after the fact. the communist/socialist international movements drastically underestimate the abilities of nations to undermine the education of their own people, the demonisation of socialism, and the systematic safety nets that they were willing to put in place to preserve capitalism, monarchy, and other systems of concentrated power. which also corrupted communist and socialist movements in the past.
im not saying we should have to bet on Bernie or AOC, but i currently just dont know of anyone else with enough sway, notoriety, or momentum that would tip the scales back in the direction of the people, even for a temporary repreive from unchecked capitalism (or a softer landing from its demise). or someone who actually has a realistic opportunity to hold that position and maintain it successfully. and also, bring “#realsocialism” to the masses without internal corruption, in the face of a population that doesnt understand how that system is supposed to work, or what its supposed to look like. let alone lead an uncorruptable vanguard movement on an international scale. obviously im speaking on one western front in the US, for what is a global class war. but we cant ignore the minutia when discussing these matters.
when lenin took power he had to make compromises to his vision to accomodate reality (state capitalism being one of them). theory and vision are wonderful. but you have to get up everyday and work towards those achievements, and it always requires sacrifice. working with people you dont like, dont agree with, etc. lenin and trotsky disagreed on their visions of socialism and communism (slightly), and had stalin been removed before he corrupted the inner circle with promises of power, and not tricked trotsky (and maybe poisoned lenin(he died after a series of strokes after stalin isolated trostky during a “vacation for his well being” and he missed lenins funeral and will reading)) then trotsky would have likely taken over. and we would have had a ussr that was a single party marxist state, with internal democracy for its leading members, with central planning. likely less political violence than stalin, but much more aggressive about international revolution rather than (relatively) contained nationialist revoltion. had lenin lived its likely he would have had a loose leadership structure within a one party system, similar to trotsky’s vision, at least in terms of organized international movements to promote socialism and communism.
however. all the above systems mentioned by these revolutionary communists/socialists ended with consolidation of power, and either nationalist control, and domestic political violence, but likely also empirical domination to some degree. these were movements that were born out of violence, and the echos of that violence effect us to this day. (russia/ukraine)
social democracy may be a slower paced ideology to bring around socialism, its far less revolutionary, and it does have massive flaws as well. but if you want to believe that real socialism is an overnight affair, its just simply not. its far too complex to implicate through revolution without authoritarianism and corruption at its heel, read any history book, or even the writings of all the communisr/socialist revolutionaries. marx, lenin, trotsky, che guevera, ho chi minh, mao, and their inspirations.
the core ideology and theory of the system is noble, but it has glaring issues that need to be addressed by a democratic collective. when marx spoke about a dictatorship of the proletariate, this is in part what he meant. that the working class would collectively choose how to run society, and abolish private productive property, for the good of the proletariate, to oversimplify his narrative. mao thought the peasantry was a more stable bet than the proletariate, and honestly he was right, at least for a revolutionary guerilla army that worked in tandem with regular forces that he used to attain power in china.
but its the destruction of the systems brought by revolution that ends up killing millions of the people the new system is meant to save. this is a hard pill to swallow. and so, we have a few choices.
repeat the same pattern, create a single party system, use authoritarian strategies to destroy the former ruling class and loyalists, disrupting supply chains and causing mass starvation, which eventually will be protested at the very least, which you subdue with military force, secret police, surveillance. etc. and this is post violent revolution, which could take decades complete, if it ever succeeds, which it wont without the support of the people.
or we can implement an alternate system within the existing system, undermining it, using technology they didnt have access to. to convince the working class the world over to realise the values that are innate in their existence and labour, and the extraction that takes place from the moment they wake, to the moment they go to sleep. and even now, while they sleep. working bit by bit to hand “digital pamphlets” to bring about mass class conciousness, and allow the demonstration of the worlds former greatest capitalist state inevitable collapse as a rallying call for massive socialist resurgance.
we need (technically have) a new digital international movement that rides the wave of capitalistic collapse as a prime example and driving force of the glaringly obvious benefits of a new modern socialism, perhaps one that doesnt need to implicate or maintain itself with as much violence as it has in the past. as we have new ways of reaching hearts and minds these days. but of course that is wishful thinking, as im sure it will likely be quite violent no matter the path we take to achieve equality, and dismantle the global structures made over the centuries by the ruling elite, and bring them to justice. formal, or informal
i just suggest that we use the information of the past to design a better system, with a more organized, and better educated force while we bide our time and prepare. and take whatever small boons that even slightly aligned US social democrats might produce in the meantime. it just seems like a more realistic probability considering the momentum/state of one front in the revolution in the US and abroad.
if you want to advocate for your personal version of what you define as real socialism, as there are many iterations of socialism. and how to achieve it. id love to hear what you think would be the ideal structure and implimentation? im sure we cant be that far off from eachother lol.
i am always willing to listen and learn, and challenge my own opinions and biases. im aware of the gaps in my logic and knowledge, so feel free to try and see if yours will fit.