I agree that there should not be billionaires. It’s immoral and unsustainable for any person (or family) to hoard that much wealth.
But killing them isn’t a moral choice either, nor is it a viable path to economic justice. Their billions don’t get redistributed to the masses. They go to their children, or to charities run by their friends, where a board of directors redistributes the funds amongst themselves.
We need economic reform, not violence and murder. We need a reasonable tax policy, citizen oversight into spending, and a functioning judicial system. The only way we win this war is at the polls.
As a society, yes, that’s the way we should do things. But reforms work when democracy works, with an educated population voting for their best interest. I’m afraid we’re past that in many countries, because of billionaires and their cronies dismantling democratic systems piece by piece, and funding fascist propaganda to protect their interests.
Fair point. Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. I still believe we can reclaim our democracy, but I understand that other people believe we’re past that point.
A very long time. But that didn’t stop progress in the past, and it is not an insurmountable obstacle. Giving up and conceding that they won is exactly what they want you to do. They want you to learn helplessness because then you won’t try to fight back.
On the contrary, conceding that they won is not my point at all. I’m not even conceding that we have to play by their rules.
Yeah, I vote when the opportunity comes along, but I don’t expect it to accomplish anything substantial. Real change will happen when we get organized enough to actually threaten the ruling class.
But is a moral choice an imperative when you’re faced with an immoral behaviour? It sounds awfully close to tolerating the intolerant. And we know how effective that is. It’s not.
“we need economic reform” fans when 200+ years of unopposed reformism never led to anything good long-term (real reformism hasn’t been tried guys just one more time please)
I mean I agree with you, not for moral reasons but because murder of billionaires without abolishing the system that fundamentally produces billionaires is pure idiocy, but reformism has been tried, always fails and just proves time and time again that it’s not the solution
Progress is the rate of change from what was to what is, motivated by the difference between what is and what could be. Tyrants and thieves don’t stop wanting power and wealth just because a new law was passed. Progressivism is a constant struggle against fascism, and you’re not going to win every battle.
But it doesn’t mean you abandon your principles. The work is hard, but worthwhile. We’re planting trees that will shade our great grandchildren.
It’s magical thinking to expect any kind of long-term change while also acknowledging that “bad people” want power and sometimes win, as then they’re in power and get to repeal any of the gains made by the progressives. It’s what we’ve seen historically, with the vast majority of welfare states getting dismantled (UK and Britain are particularly big examples).
We live under Capitalism, which reproduces our society, creates all the goods we use, and it’s most important aspect is profit - you can’t run a business by ditching profit and going for morals or whatever after all. This is what governments are fundamentally there for to support and maintain, which results in them structurally being affected by certain laws of capitalism that you cannot simply reform such as wealth naturally concentrating in the hands of the few, tendency of the rate of profit to fall over time which inevitably leads to wars in order to restore it, how labor reserve (unemployed people living in poverty) are necessary in order to drive up profits by creating artificial competition to the job market and thus reducing wages, etc.
These things you cannot reform out of much like how you can’t abolish gravity by claiming it doesn’t exist anymore. It has a direct influence on politics, and is why progressivism is such a lost cause given how any wins in making a welfare state will just inevitably get reversed by “bad people” getting into power once rate of profit drops too much.
But killing them isn’t a moral choice either, nor is it a viable path to economic justice.
Yep. It’s a fast track way towards fascism. Because, you know, powerful people react to things.
What may not mean much nowadays in the US (that I guess this is about). But it’s definitively not a solution.
The only way we win this war is at the polls.
I guess I don’t need to tell people today to go to the streets, they seem to know that already. But demand something while you are there. Because the polls only answer to organized people, and will keep ignoring you if you don’t.
That’s one of my pet peeves. What are we demanding? Hundreds of thousands of people protesting Donald Trump, but what is the call to action? How do we change things? Trump is a piece of shit, but he’s a product of our society, not an attack upon it. Protests have to have demands for change so that you know when to stop protesting. If you just stop because the protest day is over, then they can just wait until you get bored and go home.
See also: Occupy Wallstreet. We had the world economic hub at a standstill, and we achieved nothing from it.
So, decide what you think is a good set of demands, make a few posters with it, bring them to the next protest, and see if people there agree with them.
I do suggest demanding ICE to be imprisoned due to their crimes, if you are out of ideas. But I don’t have full detail of your situation.
I agree that there should not be billionaires. It’s immoral and unsustainable for any person (or family) to hoard that much wealth.
But killing them isn’t a moral choice either, nor is it a viable path to economic justice. Their billions don’t get redistributed to the masses. They go to their children, or to charities run by their friends, where a board of directors redistributes the funds amongst themselves.
We need economic reform, not violence and murder. We need a reasonable tax policy, citizen oversight into spending, and a functioning judicial system. The only way we win this war is at the polls.
As a society, yes, that’s the way we should do things. But reforms work when democracy works, with an educated population voting for their best interest. I’m afraid we’re past that in many countries, because of billionaires and their cronies dismantling democratic systems piece by piece, and funding fascist propaganda to protect their interests.
Fair point. Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. I still believe we can reclaim our democracy, but I understand that other people believe we’re past that point.
The billionaires have owned all the significant political parties for a long time.
A very long time. But that didn’t stop progress in the past, and it is not an insurmountable obstacle. Giving up and conceding that they won is exactly what they want you to do. They want you to learn helplessness because then you won’t try to fight back.
On the contrary, conceding that they won is not my point at all. I’m not even conceding that we have to play by their rules.
Yeah, I vote when the opportunity comes along, but I don’t expect it to accomplish anything substantial. Real change will happen when we get organized enough to actually threaten the ruling class.
But is a moral choice an imperative when you’re faced with an immoral behaviour? It sounds awfully close to tolerating the intolerant. And we know how effective that is. It’s not.
Imperative? No. Moral choices are never required. That’s not how morality works. If it’s not a choice, then it’s simply law.
But I agree that we should not be tolerant of the intolerant. Nor is violence never justified.
“we need economic reform” fans when 200+ years of unopposed reformism never led to anything good long-term (real reformism hasn’t been tried guys just one more time please)
I mean I agree with you, not for moral reasons but because murder of billionaires without abolishing the system that fundamentally produces billionaires is pure idiocy, but reformism has been tried, always fails and just proves time and time again that it’s not the solution
Progress is the rate of change from what was to what is, motivated by the difference between what is and what could be. Tyrants and thieves don’t stop wanting power and wealth just because a new law was passed. Progressivism is a constant struggle against fascism, and you’re not going to win every battle.
But it doesn’t mean you abandon your principles. The work is hard, but worthwhile. We’re planting trees that will shade our great grandchildren.
It’s magical thinking to expect any kind of long-term change while also acknowledging that “bad people” want power and sometimes win, as then they’re in power and get to repeal any of the gains made by the progressives. It’s what we’ve seen historically, with the vast majority of welfare states getting dismantled (UK and Britain are particularly big examples).
We live under Capitalism, which reproduces our society, creates all the goods we use, and it’s most important aspect is profit - you can’t run a business by ditching profit and going for morals or whatever after all. This is what governments are fundamentally there for to support and maintain, which results in them structurally being affected by certain laws of capitalism that you cannot simply reform such as wealth naturally concentrating in the hands of the few, tendency of the rate of profit to fall over time which inevitably leads to wars in order to restore it, how labor reserve (unemployed people living in poverty) are necessary in order to drive up profits by creating artificial competition to the job market and thus reducing wages, etc.
These things you cannot reform out of much like how you can’t abolish gravity by claiming it doesn’t exist anymore. It has a direct influence on politics, and is why progressivism is such a lost cause given how any wins in making a welfare state will just inevitably get reversed by “bad people” getting into power once rate of profit drops too much.
Yep. It’s a fast track way towards fascism. Because, you know, powerful people react to things.
What may not mean much nowadays in the US (that I guess this is about). But it’s definitively not a solution.
I guess I don’t need to tell people today to go to the streets, they seem to know that already. But demand something while you are there. Because the polls only answer to organized people, and will keep ignoring you if you don’t.
That’s one of my pet peeves. What are we demanding? Hundreds of thousands of people protesting Donald Trump, but what is the call to action? How do we change things? Trump is a piece of shit, but he’s a product of our society, not an attack upon it. Protests have to have demands for change so that you know when to stop protesting. If you just stop because the protest day is over, then they can just wait until you get bored and go home.
See also: Occupy Wallstreet. We had the world economic hub at a standstill, and we achieved nothing from it.
So, decide what you think is a good set of demands, make a few posters with it, bring them to the next protest, and see if people there agree with them.
I do suggest demanding ICE to be imprisoned due to their crimes, if you are out of ideas. But I don’t have full detail of your situation.
🤮