The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue (which I believe is a completely manufactured issue) because we haven’t talked about it enough to iron out a reasonable position.
The general pop is not accepting of trans people in professional sports. I don’t think that will change anytime soon but trans people playing school sports is far more accepted and I think its a much more convincing to fight on the issue of trans people participating in school sports for fun and social reasons. It draws away from the shit narrative that trans people are trying to compete at the highest level and I don’t think anyone can reasonably argue against it since casual sport commonly mixes gender.
Trigger Warning: Get a pack of Kleenex and load your favorite Daily Wire playlists to have handy, because this is not going to be a light read for a self-proclaimed intelligent centrist.
The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue
Do you have any data backing this? And what analysis goes with the data?
Don’t let me be misunderstood: Rights are not defined by majorities, otherwise you could have a white majority voting on the humanity of black people, and wolves voting on the right of sheep not to be eaten.
On the other hand, the public’s views are heavily conditioned by misanthropic, anti-democratic propaganda, that shifts the window of acceptable discourse, and excludes people from a set of fundamental freedoms that cisgender people take for granted. As a consequence, the ubiquitous genocidal discourse against trans lives, if left unchecked leads (and this is by now not a prediction but a historical fact) to erosion of rights of women, blacks, indigenous, disabled, and every other citizen. Because these freedoms are not “special” to trans people, but are mere extension of legal scholarship and the rule of law. The ongoing American fascism is not an overreach of “legitimate concerns” but it is profoundly, structurally embedded in challenging the legitimacy of trans people. This is why TERFism was initially deemed “unworthy of respect” by British courts: because it goes against TONS of legal precedent.
Long story short, in the times of “Der Stürmer” you could have said that the majority of German did not think Jews should be married to Germans. So what? So much for the argument that we should sacrifice human rights of ANY group because they are unpopular.
ALL protections exist so that UNPOPULAR groups enjoy the rights that the majorities take for granted. Outside that logic there is only fascism.
It is much like segregation (which, surprise, is coming back again) and apartheid: The Feelings of uneasy white people sharing bathrooms and sports with black people, are of no importance whatsoever, because, simply, segregation is dehumanizing and unjust.
By extension, what you suggest is morally corrupt and inhumane, and it is deeply fascist in its very conception.
Now, we are arriving at the data. Bear with me.
You people hand-wave a fucking lot when you suggest that trans rights are so unpopular that they have lost you elections, when there have been multiple arguments that Democrats barely touched on the topic, apart from being loosely against killing trans people in pogroms and LUKEWARM at that. So your argument amounts to little more than “Fascist discourse is more trendy so let’s do that instead”, which is not JUST the Ratchet effect: it is “being complicit to actual genocide”.
So you HAND-WAVE about an IMAGINARY regular person (who is that fucking nazi?) to whom we must bow under all circumstances? Fuck that populist tactics, and fucking educate people.
But does this IMAGINARY nazi-enabling regular Joe even exist?
Views differ even more widely along party lines. For example, eight-in-ten Democrats say they favor laws or policies that would protect trans individuals from discrimination, compared with 48% of Republicans. Conversely, by margins of about 40 percentage points or more, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to express support for laws or policies that would do each of the following: require trans athletes to compete on teams that match the sex they were assigned at birth (85% of Republicans vs. 37% of Democrats favor); make it illegal for health care professionals to provide someone younger than 18 with medical care for a gender transition (72% vs. 26%); make it illegal for public school districts to teach about gender identity in elementary schools (69% vs. 18%); require transgender individuals to use public bathrooms that match the sex they were assigned at birth (67% vs. 20%); and investigate parents for child abuse if they help someone younger than 18 get medical care for a gender transition (59% vs. 17%).
Which is from Pew which others like you like to point to as a general “trans rights unpopular with our voter base”, but if you actually read you will see that you can even find a small percentage of Republicans that are not vehemently against trans rights. And let’s not forget that the percentage of Democrats against trans rights would be very much different if Democrat’s media outlets weren’t fucking complicit in amplifying genocidal “gender critical” misanthropy, and there weren’t a score of fucking “leftist” intellectuals adopting their talk points, when there was ZERO voice given to the marginalized trans scholarship. So, this consent you talk to is manufactured by complicit Democrats to start with.
You would not make this argument unless you wanted to appeal to the Republican voter base, but doing so only shows that it is voter trends that guide your politics and not principles, and in fact, you are willing to enable crimes against humanity to appeal to a fascist voter base. This is unscrupulous and misanthropic.
Instead of succumbing to extremely well-fundedracist and nazi propaganda, a principled political advocate with such means and resources as the Democrats could help alleviate what is a systematic attack to decent society and inclusive democracy. Therefore, your advocacy ultimately paints the Democrats as a manufactured opposition, and essentially a fascist party, once it does not stand for human rights, as it never were.
Centrists should be actively considered agitator agents for fascism at this point. Like, have you clowns even considered that your voter base might want you to grow a fucking spine and stand up for human rights, with trans rights front and center? Because I only see your democratic voter base being alienated by your flirt with fascism.
because this is not going to be a light read for a self-proclaimed intelligent centrist.
What a strange opener? I’ve never claimed this. I have a feeling this entire comment is going to be attacking positions I did not mention and views I do not hold.
“The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue” Do you have any data backing this? And what analysis goes with the data?
Yes, source - pew research 66% of adults are against trans people in sports. This and other anti trans sentiment are up from 2017. Now the analysis that goes with that is i’ve watched a ton of online debate (which influences the opinions of all who view it) from the largest politcal and non politcal content creators for the past decade and there is a clear weaponization of trans issues. The reason these issues are being weaponized is because the right know that they can “win” debates on these issues. The arugments they use are not at all convincing in my opinion but they seem to sway the average person.
you could have said that the majority of German did not think Jews should be married to Germans. So what? So much for the argument that we should sacrifice human rights of ANY group because they are unpopular.
No you do not understand. I’ll play on the example. If I had said that majority of Germans did not think Jews should marry Germans. I would be aruging that we need to convince majority of Germans that it is ok for Jews to marry germans by finding a argument that is strong.
By extension, what you suggest is morally corrupt and inhumane, and it is deeply fascist in its very conception.
What do you think im suggesting? I really do not think you at all understand what im suggesting. You’re a .ml user so maybe you think that trying to present a convincing argument in favor of trans rights is morally corrupt.
You people hand-wave a fucking lot when you suggest that trans rights are so unpopular that they have lost you elections, when there have been multiple arguments that Democrats barely touched on the topic, apart from being loosely against killing trans people in pogroms and LUKEWARM at that. So your argument amounts to little more than “Fascist discourse is more trendy so let’s do that instead”, which is not JUST the Ratchet effect: it is “being complicit to actual genocide”.
Who is “you people”? I did not suggest that trans rights were so unpopular that they caused democrats to lose the election. I suggested that they were an issue that the right used to attack the left with great success (I know it was successful because they managed to shift public opinion significantly in a 4 year period). Even you claim that Democrats barely touched the topic, why do you think that was?
So your argument amounts to little more than “Fascist discourse is more trendy so let’s do that instead”, which is not JUST the Ratchet effect: it is “being complicit to actual genocide”.
No this is not my argument. Its not even remotely close.
I’ve responded to enough of this comment. It makes no sense, it might be AI slop and the people who upvoted it should be ashamed.
AI slop and my ML instance-ship? Ok dude, whatever…
First things first, the 66% is not reliable when you clearly see that the data is segregated along party lines. Nevertheless, there is a rise in favor of restrictions among Democrats and Democrat-leaning respondents. I have explained in the above and I will reiterate here that this can be explained in the network structure and dynamics of MAGA propaganda.
Since you make clear that you do NOT argue for a concession but in pursuit of a convincing argument, I respond below. But you make clear that you are not support watering down trans rights, so that none of the devastating arguments I presented is relevant to your position. Let’s examine that then.
The “convincing argument” you are talking about is a lost cause, because you forget that the right does not listen to reason. If you follow the link I have linked at the word “sports” you will see that there are several arguments about it. It doesn’t matter at all. There are great arguments out there, for the whole range of transphobic fascist propaganda. The problem is that it does not reach critical mass. In comparison, transphobic propaganda is obscenely funded and organized, as the rest of the links suggest. Specifically those links:
See if you cared about putting forward a convincing argument, you would take links such as this, and this includes my own posts, and would push them to a wider and wider network of ambassadors and online/offline propagandists, to reach as many people as possible. Agitating in left-wing forums, bordering on concern-trolling, crying there is no convincing argument for trans women in women’s sports, does not cut it. It is defeatist and achieves exactly one thing: to out you as a person who is not individually persuaded by a single argument in favor of trans people. I will not make assumptions about your precious individuality as to why is that. For the majority of people it is just SELF-CENSORED cis-genderism.
The plethora of right wing propaganda agents and the substantial amount of center-left cisgenderist apologists gives a sufficient explanation as to why public discourse has regressed more and more to more primitive and dehumanizing stereotypes and truism, no matter how many great arguments trans advocates have put out there.
Additionally:
Because mainstream platforms amplified hate speech, failed to moderate harassment, shadow banned, echo-chambered, and eventually pushed out advocates and turned into nazi bars.
Because the ever-growing right wing propaganda network became more and more interconnected and overlapping, that successive cycles of outrage and backlash allowed them to prevail in mass culture, by pushing more and more reactionary points.
Because this all went down without a shred of a response from Democrats.
Even the data you present reveal the most important thing about them: their TIME RANGE. There is no other explanation than the insane reach of transphobic fascist propaganda. I don’t have the tools as an individual to break down how the content has regressed from “legitimate concerns” to raw, primal, animus against trans people. But this is what was done:
They went from “We are NOT saying trans people ARE perverts and predators, BUT that real predators MIGHT exploit self-identification to wear dresses and attack women in segregated spaces”, all the way to “trans people are groomers, rapists and pedophiles” in a span of a few short years.
The arguments were right there, like Zinnia Jones had debunked the bathroom thing as soon as 2015. Same goes for detransition rates and effectiveness of transition. The issue here is not the message but the network of information flow that is entirely controlled by the platforms and the racist and nazi funds that are backing them and manipulating them.
Relevant research also shows (in the propaganda firehose article I have linked in the text) that responding to organized propaganda is futile. The response to this is to GROW SUPPORT for trans people, which is consistent with years and years of insight that transphobes DON’T listen to reason. The rare EXCEPTION is this dude. What changed his mind? Listening. That is what changed his mind.
If you care about trans issues, you should see to the available information to reach as many people as possible, both in quantity as well as information flow patterns in the network.
Since you insist that you never said that the left must concede on trans sports and condone segregation on the basis of gender identity, I will take it that my previous argumentation does not apply to your take, and you subscribe that eroding the rights of any protected group is out of the question, as far as your suggested strategy is concerned.
As per your own statements, you only think that there is not a convincing argument for trans women participation in sports, I have linked to a number of scientific arguments, and I added the moral in-feasibility of segregation on top of that. Is there anything else?
Jesus Christ, just let private sports organizations sort it out between themselves, their participants, and their audience. Why should this be the government’s problem when everything’s on fire and there’s microplastics in our brains and lungs? I mean really, this isn’t hard stuff. People are people, let them have their rights. If you don’t want them to have their rights because you don’t like one of several groups they’re a part of (likely without any say in the matter)? You might be a shitbag.
You don’t like that the NHL decides not to be trans inclusive (fuck idk, did they)? Write em a nastygram and pull your subscription. You don’t like that they decided to be trans inclusive? Maybe stop being such a fucking piece of shit, but nobody’s holding a gun to your head, unsubscribe and send them your tear-stained letter about how it ruined your life. This is a niche issue that people can work out between themselves without the stupid government inserting itself into the middle of things.
Who are you arguing against? I’m pro trans. I’m not I’m favour of government deciding this. But the government has decided to take away this right and now that forces people to fight (rhetorically) to restore it. I’m only making the case on how I think this subject should be approached.
If you want to go and arguing trans people in pro sports again go ahead but the right loves that. Its the only position where they have an argument.
I’m saying that should be the position: “unlike the republicans, we want a government small enough that it isn’t micromanaging how sports organizations run themselves. We believe that the organizations, their members, and their audience are competent adults who can work out their rules for themselves.”
Who gives a shit about what is happening in non-professional sports anyways? It’s kids having fun. Puppies chasing a ball. It is the least important thing on the planet.
Republicans want trans people banned from playing in sports, this includes school sports. It was a major focus for their election marketing. Republicans used the example of Trans people playing in sports at the highest level. In these debates left winger pundits failed to present convincing arguments compared to the right wing pundits because the focus was on top 0.00001% of athletes where biological differences could be seen as unfair.
Because of this, the majority of Americans (66% of adults) now believe trans people should not play in gendered sports.
I am suggesting that instead of running from the discussion, we can respond and present a convincing argument on why trans people SHOULD be allowed to play in gendered sports.
My suggestion for a more convincing argument is that we focus on school sports because they precisely “kids having fun” and no reasonable person would fight to remove a 12 year old from playing with her friends on the netball team. Except this is exactly what is happening in some places and at threat of happening nationwide.
It’s a non issue. Professional and high level competitive sports like international council and Olympics addressed this YEARS ago. With data and research to support their current positions and recommendedations.
Its a non issue but its still something on peoples minds thanks to right wingers constantly bringing it up and writing policy on it. Normally id say its fine to ignore it but since they’ve written policy on it left wingers need to reverse that and get protections in place.
Hopefully in my part of the world the challenges based on discrimination and rights violation go through. Once that reinforces that no, you can’t do these things, it becomes a closed topic.
I usually point out that the Olympics have allowed trans contenders since 2004, and if it was the cheat code it’s asserted to be, the entire Chinese and Russian teams would be trans people. That usually gets people thinking “huh, maybe this is some bull”
My issue is that that is a good argument and should be convincing it doesnt convince people. When they hear that they hand wave it then get swayed by a more emotional argument of a random example of a trans women doing well in a sport. I’ve been watching how right wingers do media and there is a tatic i think should be co op’d. Basically if they try and say “trans people shouldnt be allowed in sports because a trans boxer broke someones nose” You just completely ignore that and say “the legislation prevented a trans person from playing in causal after school netball team how the fuck is that fair.” Then hopefully they take the bait and response to what you’ve said and everyone watching forgets the 1st point and hangs on the 2nd point which is fair easier to defend because it makes sense to people emotionally.
I think the issue is just a distraction to split people. It reminds me of that one episode from IASIP. It also reminds me of bikeshedding. Like how many people are even trans athletes who rank high enough for this to even matter? Like 1 or 2? It feels like a disproportionate amount of interest to discuss something so trivial.
Yes it was a distraction but its enshrined in law now. Its also still being used as a wedge issue. Yes there is almost no trans people competing at a high level but thay doesnt matter to most people. The right will blast the example over and over and over forcing people on the left to defend it. Its better to not defend it and to instead talk about participation in school sports (which is what the law actually impacts). I’m only suggesting engaging the topic became we need to convince people that repealing the law is a good thing and enshrining protections is even better.
You can’t give an inch is the issue. Not only because we’re talking about fundamental human rights (trans people should just accept not being permitted to engage in sports?) but because it only shifts the Overton window onto the next thing with arguments now strengthened by capitulation.
If you permit transphobes the position that trans women are dangerous in sports it becomes easier to point to that and say “see, they are also dangerous in [new domain of contention], the progressives even agree!
My point is that you arent giving up on that point you’re avoiding it. Its not a popular point and if you try to argue it you lose in the minds of the average person. By avoiding the issue and talking about stronger examples like Trans people being humans who want to play sport to make friends and have fun you get a much stronger position to argue from.
You can’t logically argue your way out of bigotry. They don’t care whether they’re actually correct or not about trans issues. They already wanted to harm us and remove us from society where possible, and will find any reason to do so. See: the bathroom debates.
I’d rather people just stood up for us at all than act like they need to make good points in order for us to exist. You’re all playing kickball and we’re the ball.
Its not about presenting a logical argument. I think at this point we’ve seen that doesnt work. Its about presenting an emotionally convincing argument. Shifting the focus to causal sports is more likely to convince the average person that its fine. This does two things it prevents the conversation shifting to extreme examples and it plants the seed for conversations about trans participation in competitive sport.
The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue (which I believe is a completely manufactured issue) because we haven’t talked about it enough to iron out a reasonable position.
The general pop is not accepting of trans people in professional sports. I don’t think that will change anytime soon but trans people playing school sports is far more accepted and I think its a much more convincing to fight on the issue of trans people participating in school sports for fun and social reasons. It draws away from the shit narrative that trans people are trying to compete at the highest level and I don’t think anyone can reasonably argue against it since casual sport commonly mixes gender.
Trigger Warning: Get a pack of Kleenex and load your favorite Daily Wire playlists to have handy, because this is not going to be a light read for a self-proclaimed intelligent centrist.
Do you have any data backing this? And what analysis goes with the data?
Don’t let me be misunderstood: Rights are not defined by majorities, otherwise you could have a white majority voting on the humanity of black people, and wolves voting on the right of sheep not to be eaten.
On the other hand, the public’s views are heavily conditioned by misanthropic, anti-democratic propaganda, that shifts the window of acceptable discourse, and excludes people from a set of fundamental freedoms that cisgender people take for granted. As a consequence, the ubiquitous genocidal discourse against trans lives, if left unchecked leads (and this is by now not a prediction but a historical fact) to erosion of rights of women, blacks, indigenous, disabled, and every other citizen. Because these freedoms are not “special” to trans people, but are mere extension of legal scholarship and the rule of law. The ongoing American fascism is not an overreach of “legitimate concerns” but it is profoundly, structurally embedded in challenging the legitimacy of trans people. This is why TERFism was initially deemed “unworthy of respect” by British courts: because it goes against TONS of legal precedent.
Long story short, in the times of “Der Stürmer” you could have said that the majority of German did not think Jews should be married to Germans. So what? So much for the argument that we should sacrifice human rights of ANY group because they are unpopular.
ALL protections exist so that UNPOPULAR groups enjoy the rights that the majorities take for granted. Outside that logic there is only fascism.
It is much like segregation (which, surprise, is coming back again) and apartheid: The Feelings of uneasy white people sharing bathrooms and sports with black people, are of no importance whatsoever, because, simply, segregation is dehumanizing and unjust.
By extension, what you suggest is morally corrupt and inhumane, and it is deeply fascist in its very conception.
Now, we are arriving at the data. Bear with me.
You people hand-wave a fucking lot when you suggest that trans rights are so unpopular that they have lost you elections, when there have been multiple arguments that Democrats barely touched on the topic, apart from being loosely against killing trans people in pogroms and LUKEWARM at that. So your argument amounts to little more than “Fascist discourse is more trendy so let’s do that instead”, which is not JUST the Ratchet effect: it is “being complicit to actual genocide”.
So you HAND-WAVE about an IMAGINARY regular person (who is that fucking nazi?) to whom we must bow under all circumstances? Fuck that populist tactics, and fucking educate people.
But does this IMAGINARY nazi-enabling regular Joe even exist?
And what studies you cite for him not being able to revise being a shit person
Which is from Pew which others like you like to point to as a general “trans rights unpopular with our voter base”, but if you actually read you will see that you can even find a small percentage of Republicans that are not vehemently against trans rights. And let’s not forget that the percentage of Democrats against trans rights would be very much different if Democrat’s media outlets weren’t fucking complicit in amplifying genocidal “gender critical” misanthropy, and there weren’t a score of fucking “leftist” intellectuals adopting their talk points, when there was ZERO voice given to the marginalized trans scholarship. So, this consent you talk to is manufactured by complicit Democrats to start with.
You would not make this argument unless you wanted to appeal to the Republican voter base, but doing so only shows that it is voter trends that guide your politics and not principles, and in fact, you are willing to enable crimes against humanity to appeal to a fascist voter base. This is unscrupulous and misanthropic.
Instead of succumbing to extremely well-funded racist and nazi propaganda, a principled political advocate with such means and resources as the Democrats could help alleviate what is a systematic attack to decent society and inclusive democracy. Therefore, your advocacy ultimately paints the Democrats as a manufactured opposition, and essentially a fascist party, once it does not stand for human rights, as it never were.
Centrists should be actively considered agitator agents for fascism at this point. Like, have you clowns even considered that your voter base might want you to grow a fucking spine and stand up for human rights, with trans rights front and center? Because I only see your democratic voter base being alienated by your flirt with fascism.
Yes, source - pew research 66% of adults are against trans people in sports. This and other anti trans sentiment are up from 2017. Now the analysis that goes with that is i’ve watched a ton of online debate (which influences the opinions of all who view it) from the largest politcal and non politcal content creators for the past decade and there is a clear weaponization of trans issues. The reason these issues are being weaponized is because the right know that they can “win” debates on these issues. The arugments they use are not at all convincing in my opinion but they seem to sway the average person.
No you do not understand. I’ll play on the example. If I had said that majority of Germans did not think Jews should marry Germans. I would be aruging that we need to convince majority of Germans that it is ok for Jews to marry germans by finding a argument that is strong.
What do you think im suggesting? I really do not think you at all understand what im suggesting. You’re a .ml user so maybe you think that trying to present a convincing argument in favor of trans rights is morally corrupt.
Who is “you people”? I did not suggest that trans rights were so unpopular that they caused democrats to lose the election. I suggested that they were an issue that the right used to attack the left with great success (I know it was successful because they managed to shift public opinion significantly in a 4 year period). Even you claim that Democrats barely touched the topic, why do you think that was?
No this is not my argument. Its not even remotely close.
I’ve responded to enough of this comment. It makes no sense, it might be AI slop and the people who upvoted it should be ashamed.
AI slop and my ML instance-ship? Ok dude, whatever…
First things first, the 66% is not reliable when you clearly see that the data is segregated along party lines. Nevertheless, there is a rise in favor of restrictions among Democrats and Democrat-leaning respondents. I have explained in the above and I will reiterate here that this can be explained in the network structure and dynamics of MAGA propaganda.
Since you make clear that you do NOT argue for a concession but in pursuit of a convincing argument, I respond below. But you make clear that you are not support watering down trans rights, so that none of the devastating arguments I presented is relevant to your position. Let’s examine that then.
The “convincing argument” you are talking about is a lost cause, because you forget that the right does not listen to reason. If you follow the link I have linked at the word “sports” you will see that there are several arguments about it. It doesn’t matter at all. There are great arguments out there, for the whole range of transphobic fascist propaganda. The problem is that it does not reach critical mass. In comparison, transphobic propaganda is obscenely funded and organized, as the rest of the links suggest. Specifically those links:
Right wing domination of the online media ecosystem
Racist propaganda
Nazi propaganda
Wartime propaganda tactics
Who the fuck funds so many anti-trans hate groups?
Democrat’s media outlets spewing transphobic prejudice
Democrat media outlets 2
Gender critical “leftist” intellectuals
See if you cared about putting forward a convincing argument, you would take links such as this, and this includes my own posts, and would push them to a wider and wider network of ambassadors and online/offline propagandists, to reach as many people as possible. Agitating in left-wing forums, bordering on concern-trolling, crying there is no convincing argument for trans women in women’s sports, does not cut it. It is defeatist and achieves exactly one thing: to out you as a person who is not individually persuaded by a single argument in favor of trans people. I will not make assumptions about your precious individuality as to why is that. For the majority of people it is just SELF-CENSORED cis-genderism.
The plethora of right wing propaganda agents and the substantial amount of center-left cisgenderist apologists gives a sufficient explanation as to why public discourse has regressed more and more to more primitive and dehumanizing stereotypes and truism, no matter how many great arguments trans advocates have put out there.
Additionally:
Even the data you present reveal the most important thing about them: their TIME RANGE. There is no other explanation than the insane reach of transphobic fascist propaganda. I don’t have the tools as an individual to break down how the content has regressed from “legitimate concerns” to raw, primal, animus against trans people. But this is what was done:
They went from “We are NOT saying trans people ARE perverts and predators, BUT that real predators MIGHT exploit self-identification to wear dresses and attack women in segregated spaces”, all the way to “trans people are groomers, rapists and pedophiles” in a span of a few short years.
The arguments were right there, like Zinnia Jones had debunked the bathroom thing as soon as 2015. Same goes for detransition rates and effectiveness of transition. The issue here is not the message but the network of information flow that is entirely controlled by the platforms and the racist and nazi funds that are backing them and manipulating them.
Relevant research also shows (in the propaganda firehose article I have linked in the text) that responding to organized propaganda is futile. The response to this is to GROW SUPPORT for trans people, which is consistent with years and years of insight that transphobes DON’T listen to reason. The rare EXCEPTION is this dude. What changed his mind? Listening. That is what changed his mind.
If you care about trans issues, you should see to the available information to reach as many people as possible, both in quantity as well as information flow patterns in the network.
I would add, a proactive strategy for dismantling platforms and suppressing hate-speech are also part of the solution.
Since you insist that you never said that the left must concede on trans sports and condone segregation on the basis of gender identity, I will take it that my previous argumentation does not apply to your take, and you subscribe that eroding the rights of any protected group is out of the question, as far as your suggested strategy is concerned.
As per your own statements, you only think that there is not a convincing argument for trans women participation in sports, I have linked to a number of scientific arguments, and I added the moral in-feasibility of segregation on top of that. Is there anything else?
Jesus Christ, just let private sports organizations sort it out between themselves, their participants, and their audience. Why should this be the government’s problem when everything’s on fire and there’s microplastics in our brains and lungs? I mean really, this isn’t hard stuff. People are people, let them have their rights. If you don’t want them to have their rights because you don’t like one of several groups they’re a part of (likely without any say in the matter)? You might be a shitbag.
You don’t like that the NHL decides not to be trans inclusive (fuck idk, did they)? Write em a nastygram and pull your subscription. You don’t like that they decided to be trans inclusive? Maybe stop being such a fucking piece of shit, but nobody’s holding a gun to your head, unsubscribe and send them your tear-stained letter about how it ruined your life. This is a niche issue that people can work out between themselves without the stupid government inserting itself into the middle of things.
Who are you arguing against? I’m pro trans. I’m not I’m favour of government deciding this. But the government has decided to take away this right and now that forces people to fight (rhetorically) to restore it. I’m only making the case on how I think this subject should be approached.
If you want to go and arguing trans people in pro sports again go ahead but the right loves that. Its the only position where they have an argument.
I’m saying that should be the position: “unlike the republicans, we want a government small enough that it isn’t micromanaging how sports organizations run themselves. We believe that the organizations, their members, and their audience are competent adults who can work out their rules for themselves.”
Ok I understand now, thanks
Who gives a shit about what is happening in non-professional sports anyways? It’s kids having fun. Puppies chasing a ball. It is the least important thing on the planet.
Republicans want trans people banned from playing in sports, this includes school sports. It was a major focus for their election marketing. Republicans used the example of Trans people playing in sports at the highest level. In these debates left winger pundits failed to present convincing arguments compared to the right wing pundits because the focus was on top 0.00001% of athletes where biological differences could be seen as unfair.
Because of this, the majority of Americans (66% of adults) now believe trans people should not play in gendered sports.
I am suggesting that instead of running from the discussion, we can respond and present a convincing argument on why trans people SHOULD be allowed to play in gendered sports.
My suggestion for a more convincing argument is that we focus on school sports because they precisely “kids having fun” and no reasonable person would fight to remove a 12 year old from playing with her friends on the netball team. Except this is exactly what is happening in some places and at threat of happening nationwide.
It’s a non issue. Professional and high level competitive sports like international council and Olympics addressed this YEARS ago. With data and research to support their current positions and recommendedations.
Its a non issue but its still something on peoples minds thanks to right wingers constantly bringing it up and writing policy on it. Normally id say its fine to ignore it but since they’ve written policy on it left wingers need to reverse that and get protections in place.
Hopefully in my part of the world the challenges based on discrimination and rights violation go through. Once that reinforces that no, you can’t do these things, it becomes a closed topic.
I usually point out that the Olympics have allowed trans contenders since 2004, and if it was the cheat code it’s asserted to be, the entire Chinese and Russian teams would be trans people. That usually gets people thinking “huh, maybe this is some bull”
That’s another good point!
My issue is that that is a good argument and should be convincing it doesnt convince people. When they hear that they hand wave it then get swayed by a more emotional argument of a random example of a trans women doing well in a sport. I’ve been watching how right wingers do media and there is a tatic i think should be co op’d. Basically if they try and say “trans people shouldnt be allowed in sports because a trans boxer broke someones nose” You just completely ignore that and say “the legislation prevented a trans person from playing in causal after school netball team how the fuck is that fair.” Then hopefully they take the bait and response to what you’ve said and everyone watching forgets the 1st point and hangs on the 2nd point which is fair easier to defend because it makes sense to people emotionally.
I think the issue is just a distraction to split people. It reminds me of that one episode from IASIP. It also reminds me of bikeshedding. Like how many people are even trans athletes who rank high enough for this to even matter? Like 1 or 2? It feels like a disproportionate amount of interest to discuss something so trivial.
Yes it was a distraction but its enshrined in law now. Its also still being used as a wedge issue. Yes there is almost no trans people competing at a high level but thay doesnt matter to most people. The right will blast the example over and over and over forcing people on the left to defend it. Its better to not defend it and to instead talk about participation in school sports (which is what the law actually impacts). I’m only suggesting engaging the topic became we need to convince people that repealing the law is a good thing and enshrining protections is even better.
You can’t give an inch is the issue. Not only because we’re talking about fundamental human rights (trans people should just accept not being permitted to engage in sports?) but because it only shifts the Overton window onto the next thing with arguments now strengthened by capitulation.
If you permit transphobes the position that trans women are dangerous in sports it becomes easier to point to that and say “see, they are also dangerous in [new domain of contention], the progressives even agree!
My point is that you arent giving up on that point you’re avoiding it. Its not a popular point and if you try to argue it you lose in the minds of the average person. By avoiding the issue and talking about stronger examples like Trans people being humans who want to play sport to make friends and have fun you get a much stronger position to argue from.
You can’t logically argue your way out of bigotry. They don’t care whether they’re actually correct or not about trans issues. They already wanted to harm us and remove us from society where possible, and will find any reason to do so. See: the bathroom debates.
I’d rather people just stood up for us at all than act like they need to make good points in order for us to exist. You’re all playing kickball and we’re the ball.
Its not about presenting a logical argument. I think at this point we’ve seen that doesnt work. Its about presenting an emotionally convincing argument. Shifting the focus to causal sports is more likely to convince the average person that its fine. This does two things it prevents the conversation shifting to extreme examples and it plants the seed for conversations about trans participation in competitive sport.