Israel could start by ending apartheid and allowing the Palestinian people a modicum of dignity and representation in government, or let them have their own state.
I would agree in principle, but there are a few issues that need to be resolved:
What would be the borders of the new Palestinian state? Both sides feel that they have a legitimate claim to the complete combined territory and neither is too eager to compromise.
The Israelis say that if they lift their blockade of Palestine, the Palestinians will import weapons and start a new war. It does not help that the Gaza strip is currently being governed by Hamas, a group designated as terrorists by many countries (including the US and Jordan). They claim that the extermination of all Jews is the will of Allah. Not really a group you can negotiate with.
Both governments are using the tenuous peace to stay in power. They have no desire to solve the issue.
It’s not that simple. A lot of technology comes from Israel, including the origins of the Intel core iX design and a lot of medical ai and metsec technology. we benefit from the status quoe probably more than Israel does.
As a person in one of those industries you mentioned, there is nothing special about what they do, that cannot be done elsewhere (and with higher quality.)
Well given that Gaza is a defacto prison, they could also beg and pray, like they did for the last 40 years without effect. When you are faced with an opressive regime, there is only giving up or fighting. And it is not exactly like Hamas can build rockets with GPS or other sophisticated aiming systems like Israel or NATO can.
If the Palestinians lay down their arms the war is over. If the Israelis lay down their arms they’d get genocided. Hamas explicitly calls for death to the Jews and they have deliberately targeted civilian populations time and time again. Hamas doesn’t want a negotiated solution to the conflict, they want a Final Solution to the Jewish Question. There is one side here that can just stop the violence, and it’s not Israel.
If Palestinians lay down their weapons they are still driven off their land, getting murdered by fundamentalist settlers, killed by IDF and imprisoned in Gaza and the West bank.
Also many Israeli politicians are very outspoken about wanting to commit Genocide, denying Palestinians being humans and denying them being a people.
Fight back by murdering and raping civilians? Do not forget Hamas does have a majority support according to most sources.
Israel definitely has issues with Palestinian human rights violations but there’s a difference between throwing a family out of a house and razing it or shooting a kid that’s trying to storm a military outpost and dragging innocent civilians from a peace concert and raping and murdering them.
Just look at what Hamas, again - an organization with majority support that does not keep any secrets around wanting to murder Jewish people, is doing and you might understand why Israel has been handling the entire situation with an iron fist. Now that iron fist will fall down and it will be innocent Palestinians suffering for Hamas’ crimes.
They literally are the representative government of the region that started the attack and is getting attacked. They literally represent the Gaza Strip.
Hamas is about as “representative” of the population of Gaza as Kim Jong Un is of the North Korean people.
Both countries not even remotely resemble a political environment where free and fair elections are possible. Heck Hamas has killed way more Palestinians than Israelis and that includes their recent “success”. They are a dictatorship which uses indoctrination, intimidation and murder to stay in power.
So why are we defending Hamas here? If life under them is really so fucking shit why aren’t the Palestinians working with the Israelis to take them out?
I’m not defending them. Or do you seriously think me calling them a freaking dictatorship is a positive view of them? Since apparently a lot of people don’t understand it, I’m just explaining how it is. You asking “why don’t they just get rid of Hamas” is a perfect example. Because they are an authoritarian regime which has absolute no problem of killing everyone who speaks out against them. And then of course there is the indoctrination part which I also noted. That’s the same stupid question like “Why don’t Russians demonstrate against the war?” when those who do end in prison.
People acting like Hamas is a perfectly legitimate elected party is just so bloody stupid. The fact that the last “election” was 16 years ago should be more than enough for everyone to grasp as deeply undemocratic. And then of course they fail in pretty much every other aspect of what countries usually provide in an democratic country such as freedom of speech and freedom of the press. They also definitely don’t have a proper separation of power. They do provide some assistance to their population to keep them on their side, but that’s basically the same shit the Mafia did and they certainly aren’t representative of the areas they control.
Yeah, it’s gotten to a point where the divide is so deep and so old and there has been so much slaughter on each side that nobody is ever going to feel like “things are fair now.“ Both groups have committed atrocities, both groups have been victims of atrocities, and it’s just become a vendetta at this point with endless retaliation.
I’d love to watch the chaos unfold if they were made sure the civilians were safe. Azerbaijan achieved that, I don’t know why Israel and Palestine can’t.
Hamas doesn’t want to give up using their own people as human shields (not to mention the hostages they now have) and putting military facilities in immediate proximity to mosques and hospitals, because they enjoy a propaganda advantage when the mosques and hospitals are collateral damage. The Gaza Strip could have had it’s own power and water plants decades ago if the political leadership used the Israeli and international aid for building such facilities instead of pocketing it.
I’ve always been a fan of just making the middle east one giant country, and divide it into thousands of districts, which get representation in the central area( which can definitely not be anywhere important.) This would require Israel and many countries to come together and prefer diplomacy to slaughter though, so it will never happen.
Islamists want to be ruled under Islamic regime as depicted in Quran. In fact, all Muslim countries in the middle east abide by this. Unfortunately, they’re also fully dead set on this.
As an added bonus, Jews are literally “race that was despised by Allah (translating from Turkish here, might not be correct)” so there’s absolutely zero chance anything diplomatic could happen. Even if Israel decides to give everything up.
The potential solution would be Turkiye managing this situation but that’s even more outlandish.
I think you overestimate how many Palestinians believe this. I’m my family in gaza, we had Jewish friends. My father was best friends with a jew for many years. So many of us just want to live in peace, alongside people who do not want to kill us.
Yes, there are a few zealots who believe this, and many leaders base their power directly on their bloodlust for Israel. Most of them hate Israel and their actions more than thier religion. I know Israel is much the same to us. If everyone who truly believes this died in one night, there would be no mourning for them, and a great cry of peace and relief would reach to the heavens, saying
" let God sort out religions when we die, and not people sort out when we die by religion ".
Interesting. I’m Turkish, had Palestinian and Jordanian(?) friends along with Turkish friends alongside buddies who served in healthcare for both sides. Just about everyone who were religious in those groups had a burning hatred for Israel specifically. To a point where they get happy whenever things happen to religious people. We’re not just talking about some zealots here, we’re talking about more than half the people I know.
This is why I assumed it’s quite literally impossible. Interesting that it actually might be!
All I know is that the Islamic Brotherhood students I met at Tel Aviv University very clearly wanted to kill me. I was warned off showing any interest in a non-observant muslim fellow student that was sweet on me because the very same group of Brotherhood guys beat the last person who she was sweet and left him for dead. The older Israeli Arab muslims I met that were shop owners, etc. were much more chill. And Arab Israeli Christians (think more ethnicity than religion) were very split - they didn’t like what was happening with Arab muslims, but they also had ZERO interest in being part of a Palestinian state. They knew very well where they would be treated better, much like the Druize.
I cannot speak for them, but it is very different to not want a foreigner who is not from your religion to date a Muslim, than it is to want to kill all Jews. Of course, it is very bad to take it to the level of a beating, or to make that choice for someone else, and what they did is bad.
What I often see is a few zelots in a groups of people who don’t care for Jews, but don’t want to kill them. It is very difficult to stand for a stranger who is outside your culture, and defend them, without being labeled as an enemy of your own culture.
My father was clear to us that Jews were not evil because they are Jews, just as Muslims are not all good because of their religion. He was friends with a small family of Jews living in Gaza near us. I do not think he would want me to date them, but he was happy that we could be friends.
As an added bonus, Jews are literally “race that was despised by Allah (translating from Turkish here, might not be correct)” so there’s absolutely zero chance anything diplomatic could happen. Even if Israel decides to give everything up.
Actually Jewish-Muslim relationship before the foundation of Israel was pretty good. Including Muslims helping Jews in WW2 to escape the Nazis. There were also some good examples in the early 20th century of Palestinians and Jewish people living together.
Unfortunately when the Zionist started their project, these communities were the first they targeted with terrorism. The same militias who committed these attacks later became the core of the first Israeli army.
Another decisive factor against coexistence was once Jewish immigration en masse started, Palestinians stopped being employed as Jewish employers started hiring Jewish immigrants. Several Pan Arab intellectuals thought there could be peaceful coexistence before this point.
Yeah, except war is good for economy / capitalism, so they won’t stop funding / arming. That’s probably the real enemy, if they had all been suffocated of weapons and fighting resources, war probably would have been over long ago.
In my opinion this is an “everyone sucks here” situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.
Not to mention that for the hardliners who are in charge of the whole situation on both sides are benefiting from an everlasting conflict to stay in power! What do they care if innocent people (theirs or the “enemies”) are dying?
That would be great for every nation that has ever existed but sadly that’s not how things work. Unsolvable conflicting interests more often than not are solved by brute force.
In my opinion this is an “everyone sucks here” situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.
Maybe stop killing each other and take it from there? No? More rockets and human rights abuse? Yeah that’ll work…
Israel could start by ending apartheid and allowing the Palestinian people a modicum of dignity and representation in government, or let them have their own state.
I would agree in principle, but there are a few issues that need to be resolved:
Stop obfuscating while the United States keeps giving Israel billions to maintain apartheid and continue the genocide against the Palestinian people
It’s not that simple. A lot of technology comes from Israel, including the origins of the Intel core iX design and a lot of medical ai and metsec technology. we benefit from the status quoe probably more than Israel does.
As a person in one of those industries you mentioned, there is nothing special about what they do, that cannot be done elsewhere (and with higher quality.)
1947 UN Partition looks the best
Wasn’t there another one or is that the original one.
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And failing that, the appropriate reaction from Hamas is to fire missiles at Israeli civlians? Fuck off.
Well given that Gaza is a defacto prison, they could also beg and pray, like they did for the last 40 years without effect. When you are faced with an opressive regime, there is only giving up or fighting. And it is not exactly like Hamas can build rockets with GPS or other sophisticated aiming systems like Israel or NATO can.
Have you seen even a single damn wiki article about this place, let alone read a book?
yes i did. And in none of them just begging in praying helped their situation.
If the Palestinians lay down their arms the war is over. If the Israelis lay down their arms they’d get genocided. Hamas explicitly calls for death to the Jews and they have deliberately targeted civilian populations time and time again. Hamas doesn’t want a negotiated solution to the conflict, they want a Final Solution to the Jewish Question. There is one side here that can just stop the violence, and it’s not Israel.
If Palestinians lay down their weapons they are still driven off their land, getting murdered by fundamentalist settlers, killed by IDF and imprisoned in Gaza and the West bank.
Also many Israeli politicians are very outspoken about wanting to commit Genocide, denying Palestinians being humans and denying them being a people.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-05-23/ty-article/.premium/the-israeli-mk-heralding-genocide-against-palestinians/0000017f-e2ae-d804-ad7f-f3feb9200000
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/01/israelandthepalestinians1
https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/israeli-lawmakers-kill-all-palestinians-remarks-resurface
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/01/middleeast/west-bank-smotrich-ned-price-intl/index.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
Yes, they can.
That’s generally what happens when you treat people less than human long enough; they fight back.
Fight back by murdering and raping civilians? Do not forget Hamas does have a majority support according to most sources.
Israel definitely has issues with Palestinian human rights violations but there’s a difference between throwing a family out of a house and razing it or shooting a kid that’s trying to storm a military outpost and dragging innocent civilians from a peace concert and raping and murdering them.
Just look at what Hamas, again - an organization with majority support that does not keep any secrets around wanting to murder Jewish people, is doing and you might understand why Israel has been handling the entire situation with an iron fist. Now that iron fist will fall down and it will be innocent Palestinians suffering for Hamas’ crimes.
Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians. Fuck off.
They literally are the representative government of the region that started the attack and is getting attacked. They literally represent the Gaza Strip.
Hamas is about as “representative” of the population of Gaza as Kim Jong Un is of the North Korean people.
Both countries not even remotely resemble a political environment where free and fair elections are possible. Heck Hamas has killed way more Palestinians than Israelis and that includes their recent “success”. They are a dictatorship which uses indoctrination, intimidation and murder to stay in power.
So why are we defending Hamas here? If life under them is really so fucking shit why aren’t the Palestinians working with the Israelis to take them out?
I’m not defending them. Or do you seriously think me calling them a freaking dictatorship is a positive view of them? Since apparently a lot of people don’t understand it, I’m just explaining how it is. You asking “why don’t they just get rid of Hamas” is a perfect example. Because they are an authoritarian regime which has absolute no problem of killing everyone who speaks out against them. And then of course there is the indoctrination part which I also noted. That’s the same stupid question like “Why don’t Russians demonstrate against the war?” when those who do end in prison.
People acting like Hamas is a perfectly legitimate elected party is just so bloody stupid. The fact that the last “election” was 16 years ago should be more than enough for everyone to grasp as deeply undemocratic. And then of course they fail in pretty much every other aspect of what countries usually provide in an democratic country such as freedom of speech and freedom of the press. They also definitely don’t have a proper separation of power. They do provide some assistance to their population to keep them on their side, but that’s basically the same shit the Mafia did and they certainly aren’t representative of the areas they control.
Yes that is exactly what you should do to a population which is illegally occupying you.
Like the USSR occupied and incorporated a bunch of surrounding countries?
Yeah, it’s gotten to a point where the divide is so deep and so old and there has been so much slaughter on each side that nobody is ever going to feel like “things are fair now.“ Both groups have committed atrocities, both groups have been victims of atrocities, and it’s just become a vendetta at this point with endless retaliation.
I don’t know what the answer is to be honest.
I’d love to watch the chaos unfold if they were made sure the civilians were safe. Azerbaijan achieved that, I don’t know why Israel and Palestine can’t.
Hamas doesn’t want to give up using their own people as human shields (not to mention the hostages they now have) and putting military facilities in immediate proximity to mosques and hospitals, because they enjoy a propaganda advantage when the mosques and hospitals are collateral damage. The Gaza Strip could have had it’s own power and water plants decades ago if the political leadership used the Israeli and international aid for building such facilities instead of pocketing it.
I’ve always been a fan of just making the middle east one giant country, and divide it into thousands of districts, which get representation in the central area( which can definitely not be anywhere important.) This would require Israel and many countries to come together and prefer diplomacy to slaughter though, so it will never happen.
Islamists want to be ruled under Islamic regime as depicted in Quran. In fact, all Muslim countries in the middle east abide by this. Unfortunately, they’re also fully dead set on this.
As an added bonus, Jews are literally “race that was despised by Allah (translating from Turkish here, might not be correct)” so there’s absolutely zero chance anything diplomatic could happen. Even if Israel decides to give everything up.
The potential solution would be Turkiye managing this situation but that’s even more outlandish.
I think you overestimate how many Palestinians believe this. I’m my family in gaza, we had Jewish friends. My father was best friends with a jew for many years. So many of us just want to live in peace, alongside people who do not want to kill us. Yes, there are a few zealots who believe this, and many leaders base their power directly on their bloodlust for Israel. Most of them hate Israel and their actions more than thier religion. I know Israel is much the same to us. If everyone who truly believes this died in one night, there would be no mourning for them, and a great cry of peace and relief would reach to the heavens, saying " let God sort out religions when we die, and not people sort out when we die by religion ".
Interesting. I’m Turkish, had Palestinian and Jordanian(?) friends along with Turkish friends alongside buddies who served in healthcare for both sides. Just about everyone who were religious in those groups had a burning hatred for Israel specifically. To a point where they get happy whenever things happen to religious people. We’re not just talking about some zealots here, we’re talking about more than half the people I know.
This is why I assumed it’s quite literally impossible. Interesting that it actually might be!
I know I have celebrated when Israel suffers a defeat, but not the death of regular Jews, or Israeli civilians.
All I know is that the Islamic Brotherhood students I met at Tel Aviv University very clearly wanted to kill me. I was warned off showing any interest in a non-observant muslim fellow student that was sweet on me because the very same group of Brotherhood guys beat the last person who she was sweet and left him for dead. The older Israeli Arab muslims I met that were shop owners, etc. were much more chill. And Arab Israeli Christians (think more ethnicity than religion) were very split - they didn’t like what was happening with Arab muslims, but they also had ZERO interest in being part of a Palestinian state. They knew very well where they would be treated better, much like the Druize.
I cannot speak for them, but it is very different to not want a foreigner who is not from your religion to date a Muslim, than it is to want to kill all Jews. Of course, it is very bad to take it to the level of a beating, or to make that choice for someone else, and what they did is bad. What I often see is a few zelots in a groups of people who don’t care for Jews, but don’t want to kill them. It is very difficult to stand for a stranger who is outside your culture, and defend them, without being labeled as an enemy of your own culture. My father was clear to us that Jews were not evil because they are Jews, just as Muslims are not all good because of their religion. He was friends with a small family of Jews living in Gaza near us. I do not think he would want me to date them, but he was happy that we could be friends.
Actually Jewish-Muslim relationship before the foundation of Israel was pretty good. Including Muslims helping Jews in WW2 to escape the Nazis. There were also some good examples in the early 20th century of Palestinians and Jewish people living together.
Unfortunately when the Zionist started their project, these communities were the first they targeted with terrorism. The same militias who committed these attacks later became the core of the first Israeli army.
Another decisive factor against coexistence was once Jewish immigration en masse started, Palestinians stopped being employed as Jewish employers started hiring Jewish immigrants. Several Pan Arab intellectuals thought there could be peaceful coexistence before this point.
Except, you know, Israel literally created Hamas to put to bed any risk of Palestine uniting under an effective, secular government.
This is 9/11 for Israel in more ways than one.
One day we will learn stop arming and funding religious extremists I’m sure.
Yeah, except war is good for economy / capitalism, so they won’t stop funding / arming. That’s probably the real enemy, if they had all been suffocated of weapons and fighting resources, war probably would have been over long ago.
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That would have meant Israel would stop fucking with Palestinian civilians before these rockets were fired.
While I get the “both sides” argument, Israel is absolutely the aggressor here and should be put a fucking leash like NK.
Israel the aggressor on average by a long shot, but not this time.
Yes, clearly….
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/4/8/israel-is-creating-an-explosive-situation-in-al-aqsa
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/15/israeli-forces-raid-al-aqsa-mosque-over-50-palestinians-injured
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/27/israels-far-right-minister-leads-incursion-of-al-aqsa-compound
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/israeli-forces-storm-al-aqsa-as-hundreds-of-settlers-gather
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/26/israel-approves-plans-for-thousands-of-illegal-settlement-homes
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/6/palestinian-killed-as-israeli-settlers-attack-west-bank-town-of-huwara
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/20/un-chief-tells-israel-to-halt-illegal-settlements-in-palestine
Hamas started this one with a coordinated attack on 5000(?) locations.
Not to mention that for the hardliners who are in charge of the whole situation on both sides are benefiting from an everlasting conflict to stay in power! What do they care if innocent people (theirs or the “enemies”) are dying?
That would be great for every nation that has ever existed but sadly that’s not how things work. Unsolvable conflicting interests more often than not are solved by brute force.