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I can’t imagine creating a men’s rights community on the Internet today. It just seems like it would instantly be filled with… well… men’s right’s activists.
In many ways I think the problem is identical to “white rights activists.” Men-ness (and white-ness) are created by contrast to other groups and their liberation and political progress, not because of an internal group identity that already exists. That is to say, a men’s liberation group would be created in response to women creating women’s liberation groups – it can never escape its fate of being a reaction and an opposition. Unfortunately, “menninism” will always be about feminism, and that conversation usually turns pretty dark.
I agree with Natalie that it would be great if this weren’t true or men could articulate a clear concept of masculinity that was not: toxic, patriarchal, or a reaction against feminism. I just don’t know what it could possibly be that wouldn’t escape that fate.
I think r/menslib shows it can be done, with very clear community rules and good moderation. There’s definitely a need for it. There are plenty of men out there with their heads screwed on right and who need to be able to talk about issues that effect men without the conversation being derailed into sexist rants about women. I think maybe you’re a little too pessimistic about men and their ability to define masculinity for themselves in a healthy and un sexist way.
I’m in my 30s, and I’ve heard most of the straight men I know rant or at least comment about transphobia, sexism, and/or racism. I’m in a red state, so I know there are plenty of trash men, but the ones in my city are generally ok.
Interesting, I’m late 40s, and I’d say my closest straight male friends definitely fall more within the men’s lib way of thinking, or at least are valiantly trying, because they see through the bullshit and see how harmful it is. The vast majority of straight men of my generation though, no, they’re not like that at all. It’s desperately sad. They’re miserable and angry but can’t see the box they’re in that’s making them that way.
Menslib on Reddit was one of the very few places I’ve seen thread that needle correctly. There are real issues that men experience and in fact you already named a few. Having a space to vent about how toxic masculinity makes it hard to connect with other humans because you’re worried about your perception or how it may have lead to you suppressing your feelings for so long you no longer recognize them easily is a real boon to a lot of people. Having a space to celebrate amazing male icons who inspire others with their deeds is cool too.
The key is just making sure it’s got the right moderation team to ensure that people don’t point at easy scape goats for their problems and that we all acknowledge the complicated systems at play which often oppress us all. We need strong moderation to prevent those who have maladapted from preying on angry and hurt men. It’s not an easy space because there’s a strong history and culture of these spaces existing in toxic ways but that’s only because of manipulation and not enough examples of how to do it right
i frequented r/menslib and it was actually fairly leftist and clear about the ways that traditional concepts of patriarchy often disadvantages men and encourages inclusivity and talking about mental health. it certainly takes more intentionality, but i think they do it pretty well.
I see what you’re saying, but as a trans woman from a very rural area I see so much pain in the men in my life. And a lot of them I think just need to understand that they personally are harmed by the patriarchal ideas that they grew up with. Talking to many of them you can tell that they can FEEL the harm but lack the words and community to put the whole picture together.
I can’t imagine creating a men’s rights community on the Internet today. It just seems like it would instantly be filled with… well… men’s right’s activists.
In many ways I think the problem is identical to “white rights activists.” Men-ness (and white-ness) are created by contrast to other groups and their liberation and political progress, not because of an internal group identity that already exists. That is to say, a men’s liberation group would be created in response to women creating women’s liberation groups – it can never escape its fate of being a reaction and an opposition. Unfortunately, “menninism” will always be about feminism, and that conversation usually turns pretty dark.
I agree with Natalie that it would be great if this weren’t true or men could articulate a clear concept of masculinity that was not: toxic, patriarchal, or a reaction against feminism. I just don’t know what it could possibly be that wouldn’t escape that fate.
I think r/menslib shows it can be done, with very clear community rules and good moderation. There’s definitely a need for it. There are plenty of men out there with their heads screwed on right and who need to be able to talk about issues that effect men without the conversation being derailed into sexist rants about women. I think maybe you’re a little too pessimistic about men and their ability to define masculinity for themselves in a healthy and un sexist way.
I’m in my mid 40s and most men who can have these kind of thoughts have ended up being trans or queer.
I’m in my 30s, and I’ve heard most of the straight men I know rant or at least comment about transphobia, sexism, and/or racism. I’m in a red state, so I know there are plenty of trash men, but the ones in my city are generally ok.
Interesting, I’m late 40s, and I’d say my closest straight male friends definitely fall more within the men’s lib way of thinking, or at least are valiantly trying, because they see through the bullshit and see how harmful it is. The vast majority of straight men of my generation though, no, they’re not like that at all. It’s desperately sad. They’re miserable and angry but can’t see the box they’re in that’s making them that way.
Menslib on Reddit was one of the very few places I’ve seen thread that needle correctly. There are real issues that men experience and in fact you already named a few. Having a space to vent about how toxic masculinity makes it hard to connect with other humans because you’re worried about your perception or how it may have lead to you suppressing your feelings for so long you no longer recognize them easily is a real boon to a lot of people. Having a space to celebrate amazing male icons who inspire others with their deeds is cool too.
The key is just making sure it’s got the right moderation team to ensure that people don’t point at easy scape goats for their problems and that we all acknowledge the complicated systems at play which often oppress us all. We need strong moderation to prevent those who have maladapted from preying on angry and hurt men. It’s not an easy space because there’s a strong history and culture of these spaces existing in toxic ways but that’s only because of manipulation and not enough examples of how to do it right
i frequented r/menslib and it was actually fairly leftist and clear about the ways that traditional concepts of patriarchy often disadvantages men and encourages inclusivity and talking about mental health. it certainly takes more intentionality, but i think they do it pretty well.
I see what you’re saying, but as a trans woman from a very rural area I see so much pain in the men in my life. And a lot of them I think just need to understand that they personally are harmed by the patriarchal ideas that they grew up with. Talking to many of them you can tell that they can FEEL the harm but lack the words and community to put the whole picture together.