I’m still waiting for evidence of this supposed “apartheid” that people keep going on about.
Before October 7th, Palestinians would regularly be welcomed across the border to live and work in Israel if they so wished. Just that simple fact blows the “apartheid” or “prison state” arguments out.
Like genocide, oppression is another thing Israel aren’t very good at.
I’m still waiting for evidence of this supposed “apartheid” that people keep going on about.
It has been evidenced and been in discourse widely and long enough to have its own wikipedia entry. Human rights organizations like Amnesty International have definitely made the case. What evidence are you waiting for?
In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn’t have to ask and there wouldn’t be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It’s text book apartheid.
In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn’t have to ask and there wouldn’t be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It’s text book apartheid.
Have you ever tried living and working in another country before? Because this is literally what you have to do everywhere.
So when the National Party government in South Africa imposed restrictions on travel between made-up areas that basically nobody else in the world recognized as separate countries, that was also not apartheid?
Although I think Palestine should be an independant country, if it was not part of the apartheid state of israel, they would have full control over their own borders.
It is not the same as a border check specifically since it’s part of the same country, hence why Israel is an apartheid state.
You both are really close to understanding the problem here, you just have to dig a bit deeper.
Read this whole article, and actually read it for real, don’t skim it and pretend. It’s insane to compare it to any kind of international border because it simply isn’t.
Gaza strip was part of Egypt till the six days war.
Egypt refused to take it back.
Israel refused to pass law expending their border to include Gaza strip and in 2005 made it illegal for their citizens be stay there.
What in this chain of events makes you think they are the same country?
Despite the Israeli disengagement, Gaza is still considered occupied by Israel under international law.[20][21] The current blockade prevents people and goods from freely entering or leaving the territory, leading to Gaza often being called an “open-air prison”.[22][23] The UN, as well as at least 19 human-rights organizations, have urged Israel to lift the blockade.[24] Israel has justified its blockade on the strip with wanting to stop flow of arms, but Palestinians and rights groups say it amounts to collective punishment and exacerbates dire living conditions. Prior to the Israel–Hamas war, Hamas had said that it did not want a military escalation in Gaza partially to prevent exacerbating the humanitarian crisis after the 2021 conflict.[25] A tightened blockade since the start of the Israel–Hamas war has contributed to an ongoing famine.
Having administration privileges while being blockaded is different then being an actual independant country. They couldn’t even build ports or access to most of their waters for fishing.
None of this is defendable. Take a hard look at the behavior you are making excuses for. Israel seriously sucks.
Israel left Gaza in 2005, and placed no blockade.
Hamas to power in 2007 and broke all past agreements with Israel and started to launch rockets into Israel. This lead to the blockade.
The civilian population is no shield against a blockade.
If you started to fire your gun on my home at random hours I would have locked your door from the outside and set your home on fire with, or without, your family inside. This is common sense.
Hamas to power in 2007 and broke all past agreements with Israel and started to launch rockets into Israel. This lead to the blockade.
Hamas seized power after a civil war, brought on by an attempted coup by the PA backed by the US and Israel. This attempted coup led to the Hamas attacks on Israel. They did not randomly break all agreements and started shooting rockets.
Hamas was always deeply unhappy with the Israeli presence, but they hadn’t become really openly violent before that point.
If you started to fire your gun on my home at random hours I would have locked your door from the outside and set your home on fire with, or without, your family inside. This is common sense.
What the fuck is this insane statement. Call the police?
Gaza has never stopped being under Israeli occupation since 1967. Hamas only exists because of the Apartheid Occupation of Israel and the daily violence that has subjected Palestinians to for generations. Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, and has been the one preventing a ceasefire.
Between July 1971 and February 1972, Sharon enjoyed considerable success. During this time, the entire Strip (apart from the Rafah area) was sealed off by a ring of security fences 53 miles in length, with few entrypoints. Today, their effects live on: there are only three points of entry to Gaza—Erez, Nahal Oz, and Rafah.
Perhaps the most dramatic and painful aspect of Sharon’s campaign was the widening of roads in the refugee camps to facilitate military access. Israel built nearly 200 miles of security roads and destroyed thousands of refugee dwellings as part of the widening process.’ In August 1971, for example, the Israeli army destroyed 7,729 rooms (approximately 2,000 houses) in three vola- tile camps, displacing 15,855 refugees: 7,217 from Jabalya, 4,836 from Shati, and 3,802 from Rafah.
Page 105
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986.
page 240
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60% over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50% decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (combined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Intentionally utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain areas immune from military attack is prohibited under international law. Amnesty International was not able to establish whether or not the fighters’ presence in the camps was intended to shield themselves from military attacks. However, under international humanitarian law, even if one party uses “human shields”, or is otherwise unlawfully endangering civilians, this does not absolve the opposing party from complying with its obligations to distinguish between military objectives and civilians or civilian objects, to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects.
Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.
Gaza has never stopped being under Israeli occupation since 1967
False, Israel left Gaza in 2005, the blockade started after Hamas fired rockets into Israel.
Hamas only exists because of the Apartheid Occupation of Israel and the daily violence that has subjected Palestinians to for generations.
False, Hamas is a modern, local, branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. A movement that was already active in the area in 1929 (1929 Palestine riots).
Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, and has been the one preventing a ceasefire.
This is why Israel has peace with Jordan and Egypt. Yes. Also, remind me, who broke the ceasefire on 2006? On 2023? Not Israel.
It is not ‘99% Muslim because they murdered everyone else’ that’s an insane racist lie. Palestine has historically been a safe haven for people of every religion seeking asylum from persecution.
Like the Jewish people that lived in Gaza in 1929?
Like the Jewish people of Zfat in (1834 looting of Safed as an example, there are more)?
The Christian population in most, if not all, Muslim controlled territories has declined due to persecution by Muslims.
Gaza has never stopped being under Israeli occupation since 1967
True, already gave quotes and sources
Hamas only exists because of the Apartheid Occupation of Israel and the daily violence that has subjected Palestinians to for generations.
Also true. Hamas was established during the First intifada against the Israeli occupation in 1987, and has its origins in Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been active in the Gaza Strip since the 1950s and gained influence through a network of mosques and various charitable and social organizations.
This is why Israel has peace with Jordan and Egypt.
Because they are US client States. Peace with Jordan and Egypt never meant peace with Palestinians. In fact quite the opposite, it’s enabled Israel to continue the daily violence of Occupation and Apartheid.
Also, remind me, who broke the ceasefire on 2006? On 2023? Not Israel.
There is no peace under a violent occupation and Apartheid. Palestinians have never been able to live in peace. Anti-colonialist violence is bound to happen in response to Colonialism.
Like the Jewish people that lived in Gaza in 1929? Like the Jewish people of Zfat in (1834 looting of Safed as an example, there are more)? The Christian population in most, if not all, Muslim controlled territories has declined due to persecution by Muslims.
1929 Riots
Palestinian politics was driven not only by poverty but also by religion, particularly in Jerusalem. The religious nature of al-Husayni’s own leadership as the highest religious dignitary in the land, whose authority stemmed from a Jerusalemite genealogy, turned the attention of many Palestinians to Zionist activity in that city. In 1929, when sporadic acts of violence surrounding the issue of holy places in Jerusalem turned into days of rioting, al-Husayni was unprepared. He had sensed rising tension in Jerusalem in 1928, in the face of a suspected Jewish drive to expand the Wailing Wall area, which would have undermined the holiest place for Islam in Jerusalem, Haram al-Sharif, the site of the al-Aqsa mosque. He hoped to exert control by establishing a committee for the defence of Jerusalem in 1928, to counteract any Zionist attempts to build a third Temple there.
Ironically, al-Husayni lost control because he was now trusted by a wider range of Palestinians than anyone in his family before him. The a’ayan traditionally valued ambiguity and caution as the best means of navigating their communities through times of trouble. In 1928, this meant simultaneously calling for the defence of Jerusalem and discouraging direct action on the ground. But the Palestinian masses found this kind of co-opted nationalism impossible. They lived near the holy places and saw Jews praying there in unprecedented numbers, which they saw as part of a larger scheme to ‘de-Islamize’ Palestine. A minor incident concerning prayer arrangements near the Wailing Wall, the western wall of the Haram, sparked violence that soon swept through Palestine as a whole in 1929. In all, 300 Jews and a similar number of Palestinians were killed.
The spillover of anger from Jerusalem into the countryside and other towns was not a co-ordinated plan by the leadership. Rather, it started with uprooted Palestinians who had lost their agricultural base for various reasons, including the capitalization of crops and the Jewish purchase of land. These former peasants lived on the urban margins, from where they participated in what to them was their first ever political, and violent, action. Their dismal conditions were not the fault of Zionism, but it was easy to connect Zionist activity in Jerusalem with the purchase of land or with an aggressive segregationist policy in the labour market.
Those pogroms in 1834 was certainly motivated by Antisemitism, exploited under the conditions of Egyptian occupation. But no, you cannot paint the an entire people as antisemitic because of this.
That’s a pathetic attempt to discredit Nur Masalha’s tremendous amount of credentials and works as a historian. You have no clue what you’re talking about, as evident by your lack of interest in source materials about the subject, including reports by Human Rights Organizations and books by Israeli and Palestinian historians.
Well I’d love to hear the argument that tries to back this statement up.
I’m still waiting for evidence of this supposed “apartheid” that people keep going on about.
Before October 7th, Palestinians would regularly be welcomed across the border to live and work in Israel if they so wished. Just that simple fact blows the “apartheid” or “prison state” arguments out.
Like genocide, oppression is another thing Israel aren’t very good at.
It has been evidenced and been in discourse widely and long enough to have its own wikipedia entry. Human rights organizations like Amnesty International have definitely made the case. What evidence are you waiting for?
They want you to do all the work for them just so they can say “tl;dr”
In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn’t have to ask and there wouldn’t be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It’s text book apartheid.
Just look up the marriage laws in Israel.
*Edit because I was being rude.
Have you ever tried living and working in another country before? Because this is literally what you have to do everywhere.
Interesting terminology.
So when the National Party government in South Africa imposed restrictions on travel between made-up areas that basically nobody else in the world recognized as separate countries, that was also not apartheid?
The border isn’t based on religion. Gaza strip is not part of Israel.
The reason it’s 99% Muslims is because they murdered everyone else.
If you want to cross between countries you have to go through a border check. Like I can’t just go visit the USA without getting visa first.
Although I think Palestine should be an independant country, if it was not part of the apartheid state of israel, they would have full control over their own borders.
It is not the same as a border check specifically since it’s part of the same country, hence why Israel is an apartheid state.
You both are really close to understanding the problem here, you just have to dig a bit deeper.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_freedom_of_movement#:~:text=Israel enforces restrictions on the,usage of roads by Palestinians.
Read this whole article, and actually read it for real, don’t skim it and pretend. It’s insane to compare it to any kind of international border because it simply isn’t.
Gaza strip was part of Egypt till the six days war. Egypt refused to take it back. Israel refused to pass law expending their border to include Gaza strip and in 2005 made it illegal for their citizens be stay there.
What in this chain of events makes you think they are the same country?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#:~:text=The territory has been under Israeli occupation since 1967.&text=De facto administered by Hamas,IDF since 27 October 2023.
Having administration privileges while being blockaded is different then being an actual independant country. They couldn’t even build ports or access to most of their waters for fishing.
None of this is defendable. Take a hard look at the behavior you are making excuses for. Israel seriously sucks.
Israel left Gaza in 2005, and placed no blockade. Hamas to power in 2007 and broke all past agreements with Israel and started to launch rockets into Israel. This lead to the blockade.
The civilian population is no shield against a blockade.
If you started to fire your gun on my home at random hours I would have locked your door from the outside and set your home on fire with, or without, your family inside. This is common sense.
You are justifying an apartheid state, none of what you are saying is disproving the fact that Israel is one.
The civilian population shouldn’t have to deal with a blockade, indiscriminate bombing, apartheid or genocide.
That’s the point. This isn’t taking care of business or self defense, it’s ethnic cleansing.
Hamas seized power after a civil war, brought on by an attempted coup by the PA backed by the US and Israel. This attempted coup led to the Hamas attacks on Israel. They did not randomly break all agreements and started shooting rockets.
Hamas was always deeply unhappy with the Israeli presence, but they hadn’t become really openly violent before that point.
What the fuck is this insane statement. Call the police?
Gaza has never stopped being under Israeli occupation since 1967. Hamas only exists because of the Apartheid Occupation of Israel and the daily violence that has subjected Palestinians to for generations. Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, and has been the one preventing a ceasefire.
It is not ‘99% Muslim because they murdered everyone else’ that’s an insane racist lie. Read Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History by Nur Masalha
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Human Shields
Hamas:
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza - July 2014
HRW - Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel
Israel:
Israel/OPT: Israeli attacks targeting Hamas and other armed group fighters that killed scores of displaced civilians in Rafah should be investigated as war crimes
HRW - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields:
IDF uses Human Shields,
Including Children (2013 Report)
Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds 2024
Breaking The Silence - Testimonies from IDF Veterans
Deliberate Attacks on Civilians
Israel deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so:
The Dahiya Doctrine & Israel’s Use of Disproportionate Force
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Lavender
Where’s Daddy
Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.
Let break it down.
False, Israel left Gaza in 2005, the blockade started after Hamas fired rockets into Israel.
False, Hamas is a modern, local, branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. A movement that was already active in the area in 1929 (1929 Palestine riots).
This is why Israel has peace with Jordan and Egypt. Yes. Also, remind me, who broke the ceasefire on 2006? On 2023? Not Israel.
Like the Jewish people that lived in Gaza in 1929? Like the Jewish people of Zfat in (1834 looting of Safed as an example, there are more)? The Christian population in most, if not all, Muslim controlled territories has declined due to persecution by Muslims.
True, already gave quotes and sources
Also true. Hamas was established during the First intifada against the Israeli occupation in 1987, and has its origins in Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been active in the Gaza Strip since the 1950s and gained influence through a network of mosques and various charitable and social organizations.
Because they are US client States. Peace with Jordan and Egypt never meant peace with Palestinians. In fact quite the opposite, it’s enabled Israel to continue the daily violence of Occupation and Apartheid.
There is no peace under a violent occupation and Apartheid. Palestinians have never been able to live in peace. Anti-colonialist violence is bound to happen in response to Colonialism.
1929 Riots
pg 138
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
Those pogroms in 1834 was certainly motivated by Antisemitism, exploited under the conditions of Egyptian occupation. But no, you cannot paint the an entire people as antisemitic because of this.
Other Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Are really going after the words of grade F pseudo historians of the like of Nur Masalha? LOL
What a waste of time
That’s a pathetic attempt to discredit Nur Masalha’s tremendous amount of credentials and works as a historian. You have no clue what you’re talking about, as evident by your lack of interest in source materials about the subject, including reports by Human Rights Organizations and books by Israeli and Palestinian historians.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-palestinians-rise-level-apartheid