Quite a good breakdown by Laura Kate Dale of Nintendo’s handling of recent games featuring playable women characters from franchises usually headed up by men i.e. recent Peach game and upcoming Legend of Zelda game featuring the titular Zelda.
Featuring such Aonuma bangers as:
If we have Princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?
The triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female; if we made Link a female, we thought that would mess with the balance of the triforce - that’s why we decided not to do it.
We feel like what takes priority is this idea of gameplay. If it turns out that particular gameplay we’re trying to bring to fruition would be best served by having Zelda take that role, then it’s possible that that could be a direction we could take.
i.e. Zelda has featured exclusively MANLY gameplay up to this point btw
The triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female; if we made Link a female, we thought that would mess with the balance of the triforce - that’s why we decided not to do it.
The Triforce has to be gender balanced, that’s why Link is canonically NB
Not letting Zelda be playable in her own storyline unironically ruins Tears of the Kingdom.
I haven’t played TotK, but this is kinda what I hated about BotW too — other than the initial “get the four people to help you do the thing” conceit, the main story is made up of you remembering a more interesting story from a different time, in which you are standing around in the background for the most part
the main story is made up of you remembering a more interesting story from a different time, in which you are standing around in the background for the most part
Its even more inexcusable in the sequel. Imagine if sonic generations made all of modern sonic’s stages cutscenes, then tried to do the above for the second time because “time travel nonsense.”
This coupled with the cowards at Nintendo
spoiler
conjuring up a new Ganondorf because finally ending this man would make investors sad or something among other things makes TOK feel narratively pointless. It also makes breath of wild feel pointless retroactively (kinda like the new star wars trilogy without director shuffling to even blame for this mess.)
Storywise, I hated that. It also felt like a more tedious Breath of the Wild with a love-it-or-too-bad building mechanic.
If we have Princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?
I never thought I’d utter the sentence “Do what Wand of Gamelon did,” but…
“Do what Wand of Gamelon did,”
Remembering the context of this moment and honestly it would own if Zelda brought that kind of energy to the table again
Haha yeah it gets brought up in the vid too. She also talks about a more recent CDi-Zelda-like game —Arzette: The Jewel of Faramore. It actually seems really cool, hearing about it made me want to play it.
“A bibeo bame from the 90s had a prophecy of genetic destiny and nominative determinism with biotruths that must be obeyed forever and ever.”Trust me, we definitely couldn’t possibly retcon any of this important gender stuff like we’ve done a million times with other things
All those pretenses of innovation being why they can’t make any more F-Zero games (and Star Fox, and more), and they’re more than fine with constant resets to zero in Hyrule and the same three people doing the same damn things over and over again.
I remember being really hopeful, even excited, for how different Wind Waker seemed to be going… until the cool new pirate girl character was Zelda all along because no one else is allowed to have that much importance in that story role and then she was whisked off to be imperiled and in need of saving, AGAIN.
Oof, yeah that stings. Classic Nintendo tho. It’s almost like they view these characters as some kind of archetype that repeats itself across time - Link is the hero, Ganon is the villain, Zelda is the girl. So then if someone is getting kidnapped, well that’s Zelda’s role, couldn’t be anyone else of course
I’ve had entire struggle sessions in the past about that, here included.
Some people believe that because things have been that way for the Zelda franchise that they could only have been that way and can only be that way forever after.
A peculiar case of capitalist realism. Reminds me of the dull, fan pandering hollywood remakes like the recent Avatar live action show, where the people working on it have no idea what makes the original great and just end up reproducing the signifiers of the story (“omg it’s that character I know!”, “I found the master sword!”, “the princess is getting kidnapped!”) without the substance to back it up - it’s like one huge reference to the previous work.
And then when someone dares to play with investors’ blood pressure and rethink the formula a little bit (like BotW) it gets seen as incredibly innovative, because the norm is for the industry to be stagnant asf. Indies stay winning tbh
If we have Princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?
Whenever Link isn’t around all the other characters should be asking, “where’s Link.”
Link must go; his people need him.
where’s Link
The upcoming Zelda game answers this question with “Possessing the princess whenever she needs a man to show her how to use a sword”
“Possessing the princess whenever she needs a man to show her how to use a sword”
That’s a fine Nintendo writer excuse…
Wait, you’re not serious, right? Please say you’re not serious.
I am unfortunately serious. It doesn’t feature combat as the main way to interact with the world, but it does feature a swordfighter mode for zelda, during which she is posessed by link’s ghost and is therefore able to swing a sword now. She couldn’t do that on her own ofc because girl.
Ego level 9000
If it’s such a worry, maybe people wouldn’t ask for a Zelda game if Nintendo wasn’t nigh ceaselessly shafting their only female protagonist
:AgonySamus:
I’m pretty sure they started making Metroid games again like 7 years ago and there’s a new one coming out just next year.
I said nigh. But in the past 14 years we have gotten 1 new game and 1 remake. And the game before that was Other M.
You also said ceaselessly. And there was a fantastic remaster last year and there’s a new game coming out just next year. Like come on. For a series that before Dread never sold more than three million copies a game Nintendo is treating it nowadays like an A-list franchise. At this point it’s complaining for complainings sake.
Yes, they finally remembered that Metroid exists, and I appreciate it, but almost a decade and a half of completely forgetting about a female protagonist as pressure for exactly that continued to mount. Like, not even in promotional material for the most part. Call me bitter but Metroid games have consistently been one of the best experiences on each console they have been on, and the series was forgotten for years because It wasn’t as liked in Japan as it was in America.
At this point it’s complaining for complainings sake.
What else is the internet for?
Nintendo… weird with women protagonists
Fire Emblem’s had some fucked up shit in it, gameplay included, particularly the touchscreen “morale” system.
(CW: homophobia)
spoiler
And I’m not letting go of that “oh no I’m a lesbian but I want to mate with senpai so you have to cure me with a potion! If you’re a female character though, not interested” shit either.
Anyone who’s ever tried to make me play Fire Emblem is a war criminal
I liked Shining Force overall, so I was curious about Fire Emblem but the games I played kept straying into royal essentialism shit and a lot of mandatory breeding as gameplay subtext which is just… ech. It’s like the setting wanted to be (contextually) fanservice first and then built up a fiction and game around that.
but the games I played kept straying into royal essentialism shit and a lot of mandatory breeding as gameplay subtext which is just… ech.
Can’t believe how Just Like Me Fr Fr this is
I fuckin kinda hate Fire Emblem tbh. Shining Force is way cooler I’m p sure.Shining Force was a wonderful series for its time, but I’m unsure how appealing it’d be to you this many years later.
This is about as modern as the series gets, if that helps.
I wanna play the Saturn SFIII trilogy! That was a banger Majuular video.
I actually started with Sword of Hajya on the Game Gear, which was cute. I think SFII would be fun too honestly.
Majuular delivers for sure.
I wish I had a Game Gear as a kid; I was in awe of it during the Game Boy era (which I also didn’t have)
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
To be fair, all of that is from Fates, which sucks pretty hard lol
Suddenly so thankful I only played like ten hours of Fates. Apparently I got all I need, might still dip into Sacred Echoes (based) and Thracia.
Some of the maps on the purple version of Fates (Conquest, I think) were kinda cool, but the plot is super doo-doo.
My thoughts exactly, thank u for saying
Ew, I was actually thinking of playing that at some point. Appreciate the warning
I know that isn’t a deal breaker for some people, but that fanservice pandering is mandatory for optimal gameplay (and in some key moments, to progress at all) and I put it down and never came back.
Yeah I struggle to look past those kind of things, so I genuinely do appreciate it. £50 saved lol
the balance of the triforce
I HATE THE THERMIAN ARGUMENT
I HATE THE THERMIAN ARGUMENT
Prior to watching the video comment but as a they/them who had played every Zelda game, used to buy and sell retro games in the early 2010s and really knows the hell out of Nintendo and it’s fans, always make link androgynous and pick pronouns at the start. The character was literally designed for the player to project themselves onto hence the super on the nose name. I would add they should make link female for one game before settling on just assigning the pronouns to an androgynous link which barely requires any changes to the standard character model. And in the games link is a child, just give pronoun options, the character is like 8-12, don’t be weird about it gamers.
Yeah the idea of a female link is not that wild and definitely makes a lot of sense. The video brings it up as something the fans were half expecting instead of a princess zelda game because of some promo art that looked like it portrayed a more femme, but still androgynous link. Turns out, nope, nintendo says that’s just our main manly man link smh
Yeah, I remember that from early botw videos and I was kinda hyped to see a female Link
Imagine a Prince Zelda with some JoJo energy for flavor.
Nintendo’s suits babble about how F-Zero can’t be made any more because it’s not possible for them “innovate” it further but they keep blowing up Hyrule and rehashing that tiresome prophecy shit.
I really kinda get their point about F-Zero though? What new thing would you do with it?
The prophecy and themes of zelda might rehash every game but the gameplay itself always has a unique gimmick.
Ocarina - first 3d game
Majora - timey wimey loop gimmick
Wind Waker - The best sailing/pirate combat game to have ever been made and you can’t deny it.
Twilight Princess - Transformation
Skyward Sword - Motion controls (the worst gimmick here and the weakest of all the titles imo)
Breath of the Wild - Physics based and open world combat
Tears of the Kingdom - Completely gamebreaking contraptions
There is a distinct gimmick here that actually warrants “this is a new and definitely different game to play” each time, even if the story beats and prophecy and good vs evil is rehashed each time.
I really kinda get their point about F-Zero though? What new thing would you do with it?
Fully flight sections, perhaps, like soaring between fully divided tracks or even going into space or doing atmospheric re-entries during a race. How about on-track power allocation like a 90s X-Wing game? Maybe even some combat elements, like Rock and Roll Racing, like laser blasts and mines and countermeasures to both? That’s just off the top of my head.
Mario Kart’s been redone many times with less “innovation” than that between some titles.
I think they had enough people and enough budget to come up with that and more and they just don’t want to because Zeldarinos go brrrr
and I still stand by that.I mean yeah the reason they can always find something for Zelda is definitely the money printer. But F-Zero is more rigidly controlled in terms of “what gameplay can we add?” because it’s a racing game and always needs to adhere to being a racing game.
Ironically I think the best direction to go with F-Zero is actually to NOT make a racing game but instead make a Captain Falcon game that is open world bounty hunter stuff and simply has racing as an element of it. A story arc where he enters the races because it gets him closer to his target who is in charge of the races and only the winners get to meet them.
People would love a 3d action game with Falcon.
I’d be fine with your idea but I think what I already suggested, in a racing game, would work and would potentially open the series wide open to new fresh interest.
Rock and Roll Racing was a surprise hit for its time; F-Zero doing something like that with its own flair and style and more spaceyness would be amazing.
Didn’t Rock and Roll Racing have super light management mechanics in the GP mode where you could spend money to improve your car between races?
It sure did!
The cars also handled differently; at the high end they weren’t direct upgrades either. I kept the Battle Trak instead of swapping to the Havoc hovercraft because I preferred Rogue Missiles to the Sundog Beam. It hit a lot harder even if it had to be aimed.
That sort of thing would be great for F-Zero, but for now Hyrule world resets and tiresome 90s prophecy rehashes go brrr.
I feel like there’s plenty of space for some kind of racing management thing where you send drivers on bounty hunter missions to raise cash for car development. I need to get around to watching the goofy F Zero: Legend of the Falcon anime lol
I really kinda get their point about F-Zero though? What new thing would you do with it?
The recent F-Zero 99 game was pretty cool
What new thing would you do with it?
There are lots of people young enough to have never seen a new F-Zero game be put out on a console they have access to, so imo that’s all they’d have to do to make big bucks, even if it’s just pretty much the same game with shinier graphics
I’m going to put myself on some thin ice here, but a lot of the representation talk in gaming, including the discussions surrounding The Legend of Zelda seems pretty reductive: I don’t know if there is much progress in a world where we simply change the surface-level signs of representation of a game, when the gameplay and the mechanics of interacting with the gameworld stay the exact same from game to game. If the form is seen as unchangeable and we can only have variations in content, gaming is dead as a medium and any changes in representation will fail to matter (although admittedly most artforms are as dead under late-stage capitalism).
I completely agree with you and it actually is exciting in a way to see the zelda formula messed with in this way - I’ll be the first to hate on combat being the primary way you interact with the world around you. The problem is that it comes across like nintendo is only changing things up because girl game, and the mechanics they do change end up feeling sexist asf when viewed in that context. At the end of the day, you’re still put in a role where you identify with and play as a royal, which I don’t find nearly as exciting as the person in the vid.
The problem is that it comes across like nintendo is only changing things up because girl game, and the mechanics they do change end up feeling sexist asf when viewed in that context
I really don’t know how you’d come to that conclusion if you took into account the trajectory of what Nintendo has done with Zelda recently. The sort of systems-driven and open-ended gameplay of Echoes seems to be much more of a continuation of what they already started with BOTW (especially the 2d prototype they created for that game) and continued exploring with TOTK than something they would have come up with if they started out from the idea of having Zelda as the protagonist and designed the game downwards from there. This is obviously not how Nintendo always operates, and I’d bet money that the Princess Peach game that came out this year actually was the result of some market research telling them they’d need a game to market to girls specifically and that was then designed from that idea downwards, but I really don’t think that is how they’re conceptualizing Zelda games right now, where the team and their games seems to have been successful enough to be free from such concerns.
Fair enough regarding the progression of the game design across the series. Nintendo games do be pricey, so I didn’t take it into account because I haven’t played most of them. But that actually makes even more sense regarding why they feel comfortable bringing in zelda as mc for the first time now.
If it turns out that particular gameplay we’re trying to bring to fruition would be best served by having Zelda take that role, then it’s possible that that could be a direction we could take.
i.e. they would only cast zelda for the mc role if she was more suited to the gameplay than link. Read: Link has been more suited to be the protagonist of each mainline game up to this point. So now that they’re cooking with a different gameplay formula (not a bad thing on its own) they feel like zelda can take centre stage (also not a bad thing on its own).
