The civilian settlers who are taking Palestinian homes by force are an occupying force.
The attack by Hamas was not legitimate because it was against random civilians.
I agree entirely. But to them, Israelis are all ‘settlers’.
I’m not saying Israelis are guilty or deserved the attack on civilians, but Israel is a settler-colonial state. So is the US, but I’m not going to call for every US citizen with colonial roots to be forced off the continent (especially since that would include myself, my ancestors - including recent ones - were awful people who did awful things).
You can acknowledge that the state of Israel is an illegal settlement without calling for genocide, just as you can acknowledge that the US is founded on stolen land without calling for death to all Americans.
My point was that they regard all Israelis as culpable in the same manner as those currently constructing illegal settlements in the West Bank and shooting Palestinians, and use such terminology as a means of justifying their view of collective guilt.
Palestine is also a settler-colonial state, and so are the Ottomans. So is pretty much every sovereign nation in the world.
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So, let me just confirm - you regard Israeli civilians as not innocent for the crime of being born Israeli on stolen land. Correct?
I misread your post. Obviously they should not have been attacked and did not deserve to die.
This is their name for the attack by Hamas on a music festival, is that right?
Yep.
I just woke up this morning to the news that six hostages had been found dead in a tunnel in Gaza, cause of death multiple gunshot wounds at close range.
I struggle to find sympathy for Palestine after reading a story like that.
Hamas deserve no sympathy - but most Palestinians are just people, like the Israelis, living under a regime that heavily peddles dehumanizing propaganda. If we had no sympathy for the Israelis because of the Palestinians intentionally killed by their hands, we’d be going down the same route that’s currently locking the two sides into a fucking pointless race towards genocide, that Israel seems likely to ‘win’.
It’s a bit more complicated than ‘if you’re not hamas you’re automatically innocent’
Majority of Gaza has supported Hamas for decades and will likely continue to do so.
In the same vein, the majority of Israelis have supported the occupation and genocide of Palestine, and will continue to do so.
It’s not about being ‘innocent’. That’s how these blood feuds perpetuate themselves. We have to accept that, going forward, mere tribalist support for one atrocity or another is not enough to continue pursuing this pointless blood feud. We couldn’t in-good-conscience hang every Nazi after WW2, and Nazi civilians were far more deserving of the noose than the civilian populations of Gaza or Israel.
We cannot justify the murder of Israeli or Gazan civilians under the guise that they hold hate in their hearts or support a shitty side in this shitty conflict. We must narrow those who deserve retribution to the actual criminals, not the propagandized and struggling masses.
I think what the ICC is doing is good—calling for the arrest of both leaders. Neither are budging though.
All of Palestine? You gotta refine that opinion dude, it’s ~5 million people.
I’m kinda over being told what to think online, thanks.
It’s cool, I’m not your dad. I’m more speaking to the message than you, cause you’re just a name. I’m speaking to a bigoted, myopic message on a platform that I use. You can come or go.
I’m also over hearing people make excuses for mass murderers. Hamas are the government of Gaza, after all, this logic isn’t applied to other governments vs their own people.
That’s not what you said. Don’t squirm now.
Most people here don’t call on Ukraine to indiscriminately kill Russians. It’s the same logic.
Then shut the fuck up.
No, seriously. If you’re not down to have your opinions challenged in this, the gentlest possible way, keep them to yourself.
No, I don’t think I will. I don’t think I’m the only one here who needs their views questioned. How can you possibly justify executing hostages in cold blood?
You are literally telling people not to question your views, because you’ll just ignore them.
You don’t know what conversation you want to have.
Should foreigners lose sympathy for your people as a whole, if a group whose members hailed from it do something horrible? Its not like everyday people in Palestine have much choice about what goes on there.
What, like storm the capital?
Ironically enough, the group that seems to be doing the most to free Palestine from the rule of Hamas is the Israeli government.
And quite frankly, I’m sceptical of the claim Palestine is suffering under a dictatorship going against the will of the people, from what I’ve seen they have a lot of support from the population.
Ironically enough, the group that seems to be doing the most to free Palestine from the rule of Hamas is the Israeli government.
Man, Israel has spent years propping up Hamas.
Not just propping up, getting them into power in the first place. Israel manipulated the elections in Gaza to ensure that Hamas came to power so that they’d be able to frame their fight as being against extremists instead of the more reasonable who had been opposing Hamas (the name escapes me at the moment).
Fatah. Fatah agreed to a two-state solution and peaceful negotiation, and the Israeli prime minister got assassinated by far-right Zionist loons for his trouble. Ever since, every attempt by Fatah at good-faith negotiation has ended up as demands from Israel for a demonstration of fealty, followed by Israel not following through on its obligations anyway. For obvious reasons, this severely damaged Fatah’s credibility.
Also, Fatah is either hilariously or sickeningly corrupt, depending on whether you feel like laughing or crying on the given day. Hamas used that to worm their way in too, though now they’re no less corrupt.
Because hamas was originally a charity
… when do you think Hamas was a charity?
Hamas has performed charity. But that’s not the same as being a charity - their express purpose from their founding has been the destruction of the state of Israel.
Until recently, yes.
Not sure that setting up an enemy for the explicit purpose of using them to harm civilians, and then harming civilians in the process of taking them down, is really freeing anybody. As far as Israel’s actions more than a week or two past October 7 go, I’m disinclined to give them any sort of ‘credit’ for anything except the slaughter they’re overseeing.
What does killing 40 thousand people, mostly innocent, do for your sympathies? Raping and torturing people in detention. For that matter, detention without charge? Turning off water to 2 million people? Preventing food and medical aid? No, sorry - the IDF claimed that a bad thing was done by Hamas… more genocide is clearly called for. You’re allowed to think whatever you like online, as you’ve asserted.
I’m not, in any way, defending Israel here. They’re also terrible.
in which case, my apologies for jumping to conclusions
Palestine didn’t kill those hostages, Hamas did. Hamas deserves to die, innocents do not, and killing innocents to reach the bad guy is not justified
I respect the sentiment, but Hamas uses innocent civilians as human shields all the time. Doing what you say would allow them to attack with impunity.
If you can’t defend yourself without doing war crimes, you’re not defending yourself. You’re just using it as an excuse for war crimes.
I suggest you read the definitions of what is and isn’t a war crime.
Bombing hospitals, schools, residential buildings, refugee camps, and aid workers are war crimes. Isreal has done all of the above and more.
I too find it hard to sympathize with little Hind or the poet Refaat when they murder hostages.
Yeah, I know, not all Palestinians support Hamas, yada yada, but that’s not how emotions work, is it?
There are no good guys here, just two awful groups of people, and a bunch of civilians caught in the middle.
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stolen your homes and land
…
private property should be abolished
Pick only one
That’s not what they mean by “private property.” Leftists are just so goddamn stubborn that they refuse to acknowledge the immediate confusion and use any other label.
Is there anything resembling a consensus on that? They’re not interested in our toothbrushes as they say, but how about arable land? A machine shop? A work truck?
Depends what you’re using it for
When they say “private property” they are not referring to the people’s toothbrush, but the private ownership of production. Houses and such are “personal property”.
They are also private property. How about my machine shop? My acre of land with a garden? A dairy cow?
That depends on the use. Are you using it as a productive business for profit or just something you like, maybe even for some side money. Are you hiring employees to work it for you? Once you make it a mode of production it’s considered a privately owned means of production. If it’s something you just have, it’s personal property.
That’s the gist anyway. These are actual, defined terms and not just things people throw around on the internet. If you want something more specific, doing a search will probably get a better explanation than I’m good at giving.
Daily reminder that tankies aren’t leftists.
I’m ready for the new tankie book called “my struggle.”
I don’t understand. Regardless of who does the killing and for whatever reason Ukrainians kill Russian civilians or vis versa, if Uyghurs kill Han Chinese or vis versa or even if Palestinians kill Israeli civilians or vis versa and even if it is fully understandable it is never legal nor justified to kill civilians.
Holy strawman, Batman!
Please explain to me how defining the murder of civilians as a legitimate and legal attack for the crime of existing in a country while a particular ethnicity is anything but a call for ethnic cleansing.
Characterising fighting against an occupying force as “calling for the genocide of the working class for being the wrong ethnicity” is deliberately misinterpreting the post that (I presume you) were responding to.
That is a strawman.
“[attack targeting civilians] was a legitimate attack against an occupying force.”
“Innocent civilians are not an occupying force”
“When they’re the people who’ve stolen your homes and land, they are”
Please, explain this to me. Explain to me how “Israeli civilians are legitimate targets because they’re the ethnicity who’ve stolen your homes and land” isn’t a call for genocide.
None of the sentences you’ve quoted mention either working class or ethnicity.
“Innocent civilians are not an occupying force”
This discounts action, as ‘innocent’, ‘civilian’ and ‘not an occupying force’ are all specified.
“When they’re the people who’ve stolen your homes and land, they are”
… so what the fuck other use of “the people” here is there? It can’t be referring to a group of people who are performing an action, that was explicitly discounted by the prior comment. “who’ve stolen your homes and land”, especially in the context of civilians attacked who were nowhere near illegal settlements, is referring to - and this may be shocking - Israelis.
As for working class, who the ever-loving fuck do you think makes up the majority of most civilian populations
You can lead a man to logic but you can’t make him think.
What was wrong with their comparison to a previous occupying force? Occupy does not mean at war or invade. Nazis could be civilians of course.
“Al-Awsa flood was a fully legitimate and legal attack against an occupying force”
Citing the attacks on October 7th, which targeted civilians, as legitimate and legal against an ‘occupying force’.
“Innocent civilians are not an occupying force”
Giving the opportunity, here, to dispute that they were innocent civilians - by specifying innocent civilians not being an occupying force, they are necessarily narrowing the scope of the discussion to civilians in the context of the October 7th attacks and whether they were legitimate.
“When they’re the people who’ve stolen your homes and land, they are”
That innocent civilians were targeted is not disputed. Instead, it is asserted that as the civilians were “the people who’ve stolen your homes and land”, they are in some way legitimate targets. What other reasonable interpretation is left in context?
Well they didnt avoid military personnel, they grabbed whoever they could. Its a bit different too when you consider all Israelis serve in their military by default.
How about this, you tell me what they should have done instead? Continued on as they were? Are you aware the IDF was killing a palestinian child per week all through 2023, PRIOR to October 7th?
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank
I’m not saying its right to hurt people, I’m saying there is only so much a community can take before things like this happen, and now its being used as an excuse to further kill and steal land, which is wrong.
Or how about foreign countries lobbying our government? Bad right? If russia had a PAC and was donating money to get laws passed that are favorable to Russia, we would rightly protest across the nation.
We allow the exact same thing for Israel and protesting that fact is now illegal in America. How’s that for moral consistency?
Well they didnt avoid military personnel, they grabbed whoever they could.
Oh, they didn’t avoid military personnel when killing civilians, if they had avoided military personnel when killing civilians, like all the truly great terrorists do, THEN it would be condemnable.
Its a bit different too when you consider all Israelis serve in their military by default.
Jesus fucking Christ. I ask you to take a step back and re-examine this statement and its implications.
How about this, you tell me what they should have done instead? Continued on as they were?
You do realize that a massive attack on an occupying power does not actually have to target civilians, right?
Are you aware the IDF was killing a palestinian child per week all through 2023, PRIOR to October 7th?
Yes, I am well-aware. I’ve condemned the situation in Palestine as a genocide many, many times before October 7th.
I’m not saying its right to hurt people, I’m saying there is only so much a community can take before things like this happen,
Before… what? Before a mafia pseudostate triggers an intensified period of war with the occupying power which looks damn well like it might result in a serious incident of genocide far in excess of previous attempts, by launching an attack by paramilitary forces on the ground (as opposed to rockets or bombs) that targeted civilians, because they want to puff themselves up to hold onto power?
and now its being used as an excuse to further kill and steal land, which is wrong.
Agreed,
Or how about foreign countries lobbying our government? Bad right? If russia had a PAC and was donating money to get laws passed that are favorable to Russia, we would rightly protest across the nation.
Yep. AIPAC’s influence is awful, and should be strongly opposed, especially considering how deeply they’ve woven themselves into the current party system. Not really sure what that has to do with Hamas targeting civilians, though.
We allow the exact same thing for Israel and protesting that fact is now illegal in America. How’s that for moral consistency?
Don’t be silly.
I think its hypocritical everyone seems understanding of the Palestinians but wants to shout at them they are doing it wrong. They were already facing cultural genocide, it was already awful before the 7th.
Unless you lived in Gaza at the time I dont think westerners should be sitting here virtue signaling.
Americans do understand the occupier vs occupied you’d think considering their history with Britain, or Americas history with the “third world” but suddenly this one doesnt count.
The people being abused had been lashing out in every way they could before with no response. Its absurd to sit here and say the one thing they did that caused global outrage against Israel for their treatment of Palestinians was the wrong thing to do.
I would never hurt anyone, but im not Palestinian nor do I live under those conditions. If I did, I’d likely have a different perspective.
I think its hypocritical everyone seems understanding of the Palestinians but wants to shout at them they are doing it wrong.
If you think targeting civilians in ethnic cleansing isn’t doing it wrong because you prefer their side of the conflict, we have nothing to talk about. Your position is no different than the excuses given by the Zionists.
I’m just not being a hyprocrit who says they agree with the Palestinians but knows better than them how to help their people.
This wasn’t the first attempt at a solution, this is nearly 80 years of events leading up to something.
The crowd of people who are using this as an opportunity to hang their perfect morals in front of the general public are cowards.
This wasn’t the first attempt at a solution, this is nearly 80 years of events leading up to something.
Except it’s not. It’s not ‘leading up to something’ like this was some bold, grand strike that’s never been tried before. This has been tried numerous times before, and the reaction from Israel is always the same. This isn’t 80 years of events leading up to something - this is an 80 year pattern whose only change is that Israel seems ready to right and truly finish their genocide attempt in Gaza - or make significant ‘progress’ in doing so.
Rape is not resistance.
You tell em brother.
