Obviously reporting transphobic comments to a transphobic mod isn’t going to result in any action, so I’m wondering if the admins are going to do anything about it?
(if someone needs an image description, please ask)
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Hey buddy,
After reviewing the situation between myself and the admin team, we have decided that the actions taken by the mod in question do not align with how we expect moderators in particular to conduct themselves in the wider fediverse. We will be taking action against the user in question and locking this thread. For any additional concerns, don’t hesitate to reach out to me either here or on Matrix.
If a community isn’t safe for trans people, it’s not safe for anyone. The mob just hasn’t gotten around to abuse you yet.
Maybe sports shouldn’t be the barometer for who gets to particiate in society? Sports are the most acceptable right to strip away from a group, as the right to play a sport isn’t a civil/human right, its particiation in a game. Conpetition is the secondary motivation compared to the primary motivation that people like social games where they can roughhouse.
For a country that loves sports so much people really are being two faced snakes pretending not to grasp the significance of that. No sports today, back of the bus tomorrow. We don’t want to play games with you = We don’t see you as human.
OK that’s the last straw for me. I am willing to give the benefit of a doubt to people, but this is the third strike for this person. So I’ve asked them to move their comm to another instance as they don’t align with our instance values.
Common db0 W
The right call.
Well done!
Fantastic. We can only hope that the lemm.ee team take a similar stance against this user, but I won’t hold my breath.
They already posted on !fediverse@lemmy.world asking for a new instance, so I guess they know that lemm.ee won’t allow it.
Just checked, from the sidebar “No bigotry”
Wahey, good riddance! Thanks for the update.
Please explain what I’ve said that is bigoted? I would go .ee but they don’t allow bot majority communities (I have got an exception for that but I’m checking out the options first).
Assuming you’re genuinely uninformed and confused, trans women do not have any advantages over cis women if they’ve been on HRT. The lack of testosterone affects the body dramatically. You can see evidence of this in the fact that trans women aren’t dominating any of the competitions which have allowed them.
Furthermore, sports were never fair in the first place. Some people are more naturally gifted in various areas than others. There are actually cis female athletes who have been forced to medically lower their natural testosterone levels in the name of fairness, and that’s some Harrison Bergeron shit.
if they have been on HRT
This might actually be the most important thing here: I have no idea how youth sports handle things (and under the current fascist climate competing as a trans athlete surely is nearly impossible), but if they were to compete without HRT they might have an advantage (in specific sports)?
It’s such a small if combination of things that it’s not worth making a fuss over about, but it might be the one case where it could be true?
It depends on where the kids are in their development. AFAB and AMAB kids are functionally identical until puberty starts. A trans child should, imo, be allowed puberty-prevention treatments so that they can choose what kind of puberty they’d like to have when they’re older. And that’s sure as heck not doing anyone favors in the athletics department.
True, and absolutely they should be allowed puberty-prevention treatments
No the most important thing is that the government has no business getting involved in policing young girls bodies in order for them to be allowed to go have some fun with their friends and team mates on the field.
High school sports don’t even need to be that competitive to begin with. It’s not a professional league.
In your attempt to problematize 1% of 1% of 1% of the population here, when school admins and doctors are fully capable of handling it themselves, conservatives are running roughshod over the humanity of every cis girl with broad shoulders, every cis girl with a hormonal issue like PCOS, every cis girl who’s period gets delayed because she’s athletic, etc.
Those are the vast majority of victims who are harmed by the type of thinking you’re intellectualizing over here. Cis girls. Who now will be forced to prove their bodies are acceptably feminine in order to play.
Of course they’re doing all that to trans girls too but nobody cares about that. So as a trans woman I tell you: go ahead and do it I dare you.
Replace ‘trans’ with any other group, does it sound bigoted to you now? It reads like ‘we can’t have black girls compete with white girls because of the clear advantage in physicality’ you know, the common racist talking point of old?
OK let’s replace trans with another group let’s use men as an example. “We can’t have men compete with women because of the clear advantage in physicality” is this sentence fine?
No. Look into the history of the first woman to run the Boston Marathon and how people believed that the jostling of the running would kill a woman. That is the world that allowed women’s sports only as it’s own category. Some sports like tennis it might make sense on a competitive compromise. But to apply that thinking to high-school sport, which is more about community than competition, it is just clear exclusion.
What clear advantage? Men and women on average have different body structures, yes. That might favour one in one sport and one in another. The blanket statement “men have a clear advantage in every sport over women” is BS.
That would be a stupid thing to say. Except your the only one who said it cos I sure as shit didn’t say every.
Nice strawman.
It’s just so mind-boggling to me that you can respond to my statement with no critical thinking at all. Do you not even consider the possibility that you could be wrong? I can’t even process that level of arrogance.
I absolutely contemplated the the situation that I could be wrong I then went and read a bunch of peer reviewed journals on the subject including ones sent to me by people here on Lemmy. Then based on reading those articles concluded that I was not wrong.
You my friend are the one too arrogant to contemplate if you are wrong.
But also, how gross to round about just say that trans women are men… ಠ_ಠ
What .ee rule have I broken? I haven’t said anything hatefull. Do u enjoy silencing opinions u disagree with?
You haven’t shared any opinions - just hateful falsehoods and bigotry.
Some folk learnt that free and open discourse is the real enemy, and go harder than Scientologists against anyone they percieve as disagreeing with them
I agree. We’re talking about Elon Musk, right?
I reckon so; I’m not a fan of intolerance
You know what? As a woman who’s had a sex change, I am so tired. I could not give a shit about this mods opinions or any of this topic from anybody.
It’s quite simply a topic that loses us support for emotional gut vibe reasons that have nothing to do with rationality. And for what?
I’ve never played women’s sports. Nobody trans I’ve ever met plays women’s sports because we’re all fucking afraid of it and always have been.
We are less than 1% of the population and of that 1% maybe 1% is anywhere near ballsy enough to even begin to try in this environment let alone having the resources to try competing on top of much more pressing matters like surgeries and hormones.
Are these people ignorant and on the wrong side of history here? Absolutely.
Have transsex people been playing sports for decades without issue and without dominating even one out of hundreds of different sports? Absolutely.
Are they just making shit up about transsex bodies based off nothing but unchecked stereotypes and ignorance because they only ever notice the most visible and non-passing ones and have no idea how many of us are stealth? 1000% you betcha.
Could whatever nuanced future issues be resolved by simply introducing additional classes according to measurable biological traits like weight or shoulder span in the few cases where perhaps one day there will be reason to? Yepppp.
Is this whole conversation actually just misogynistic control over women’s bodies that will ultimately harm quantitatively more cis women than trans women? Yep!! And they are better poised to tackle that than us when it does.
And yet? I want everybody to shut up about it because we have far more pressing issues at hand. When it comes to women’s sports the public has made up their mind and the facts don’t matter.
We’re losing access to life saving medical care, being deplatformed, and criminalized for existing in public and y’all still think this is about pointless debates over sports. The public does not have much bandwidth in their minds to spare on us & it’s imperative we get off this topic.
If someone thinks I’m a “biological male” who shouldn’t play women’s sports I don’t frankly care. As long as they don’t interfere with us building robust community organizations to ensure everybody has means to survive the Nazis in coming years, it’s fine.
Frankly they can call me a biological male all day if they want to deliver some hormones to a girl who needs them. They’d still be stupid and wrong but at least useful then.
If it’s not sports it’ll be something else.
This is a fallacy that treats all arguments as equal in the eyes of average people. But they are not.
The women’s sports attack is a bridge argument. They came after it because it’s a place where we lose. By replaying that loss over and over it serves to erode the general consensus on our rights, so that they can expand to other more radical positions later.
Arguing in that arena effectively builds the bridge with them even though your intentions may be pure.
It’s better instead to instead cut our losses and fight them on a topic very few people will disagree with us on. This builds consensus among the general population that we are on the right side of history. This burns down the bridge so they cannot cross it.
Women’s sports are the main entryway for transphobic policymaking besides gender affirming care for minors. This is where they weasel in, this is where they normalize misgendering us and making bioessentialist claims that are the opposite of all the empirical evidence, this is how it starts. Not fighting back against sports bans is how we lost the American public on that front, it’s how we lost the American public on even the meekest compromise measures like puberty blockers, now they’re at striking down workplace discrimination protections and changing our documents. You do not get to pick and choose what’s a losing issue here, ofc they’ll start with the stuff that’s easiest to paint as contentious. Amerikans gave in there, it was the start of how they lost that fight. This is all or nothing. You stand with all of the community, even a tiny minority of trans athletes, or you do not stand with any of us. Does that mean we’ll win on all fronts? No, but we still have to resist on all fronts or we’re fucked. Do not give a single inch just because you personally don’t care or think you’re personally not affected, this is part of a bigger struggle and you’re not equipped to fight it if you don’t fix that.
I think the trans women who are passionate about their sport disagree with you. Why would you just be okay with letting someone literally lose their hobby or even career over their gender? It’s dehumanizing.
I don’t see what harm this conversation has. People who aren’t terrible will be better educated and people who are terrible weren’t trans allies in the first place. What have we lost?
e:
Frankly they can call me a biological male all day if they want to deliver some hormones to a girl who needs them.
You know they’re going to stop that, right? They’re not going to allow people to transition at all if they get their way.
Uh huh. As if this 1% of 1% are only ones of us who have lost our hobbies in the wake of having our life saving medical care revoked. So we should all make the conversation about them.
Do you have any idea how much losing access to HRT and surgeries disrupts a persons life and hobbies? How much a sex change in general does that? There isn’t a single one of us among us who hasn’t had their life knocked off course by a sex change it’s not that special.
Sports is a losing issue that sucks up all the air in the conversation and leaves the rest of us dehumanized. Conservatives know it that’s why they chose it.
Response to your edit: THEY HAVE ALREADY STOPPED DOING THAT AND YOU STILL THINK ITS ABOUT SPORTS. That’s the entire point. Stop fighting on their terms. Every time they try to make it about sports change the subject to what matters.
Why are you making it one thing or the other? We can have more than one conversation. Do you think we should shut up about trans rights altogether because all this bickering over such an insignificant number of people is distracting from larger human rights issues?
If it’s the case that the conversation itself upsets you because it hurts and you’re sick of seeing it, I totally get that; it’s valid.
So by your logic we should just roll over and allow them to run roughshod over our rights then while we debate every minute detail of our bodies and whether they affect competitiveness in silly games.
Got it. The general population has barely any attention capacity for this so let’s just keep playing on the conservatives terms then. Great effort.
For every conversation you have about hormone levels you could be raising awareness of far more pressing issues in our community and calling conservatives bluffs instead of falling for the red herring.
I would like to understand what you’re saying better. I assume the original OP was a thread about sports (though honestly I have no idea). Given that context, how should someone in OP’s position behave/respond (if at all) to the posts about trans women in sports?
And yet? I want everybody to shut up about it because we have far more pressing issues at hand. When it comes to women’s sports the public has made up their mind and the facts don’t matter.
So do I, which is why I reported those comments to be removed, but then realised that the only mod in the community agrees, and so they wouldn’t only not be removed, but more of them would be encouraged, which I think is unacceptable, especially if the instance hosting them has rules against bigotry, which is what this is.
If that were true you would have replied by ignoring their red herring (women’s sports) and brought the attention back to the real issues—lack of access to medical care, criminalization of trans legal status, etc.
Instead you decided to debate them over nitpicky “biological advantage” arguments which just reinforces the myth in the minds of readers that the only thing we have to lose here are silly games for entertainment and fun. That’s exactly what they want and you fell for it.
oh fuck off you pick-me loser.
Hate to break it to you but we’re 1% of the population.
We don’t need to be picked but we absolutely do need to be tolerable in the eyes of average cishet people so they leave us alone.
So anyway, some of us have experience from more than two decades of activism & organizing seeing what actually works to secure us basic legal and medical rights.
Others live on hexbear.net and toss terms like “pick-me loser” around at any transsexual with a sense of pragmatism. Be mad about it.
I haven’t debated them though? I called them transphobes, left 3 links for the sake of anyone who might be reading their nonsense and want some correct information, blocked them all, and reported the issue.
Literally nobody in the trans community cares about this topic until conservatives discovered it was effective.
🙇🏻♀️🙇🏻♀️🙇🏻♀️
I wound up revising that part out on my second read. But for anyone reading this quote yes I did that in my OG post. And it’s true I just didn’t feel it flowed with the rest of what I wrote
Which community is that? Did you report it so that the admins can take charge?
!news_summary@lemmy.dbzer0.com
I reported the comments, but the sole mod openly saying they agree with them is why I made this post, assuming the reports go to them ,and they will blatantly just ignore them
E: I have now also after realising the mod is from lmmy.ee but the community is hosted on db0, crossposted to our own meta
I see. If the mods just tackle the reports, the admins might not see them indeed.
FYI @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com @unruffled@lemmy.dbzer0.com @EllaSpiggins@lemm.ee @JuiceMachine@lemm.ee @beneeney@lemm.ee
Thanks for tagging in the relevant people, and for confirming that if the mod in question deleted the reports, they probably wouldn’t reach the admin level.
I really hope the other admins act as decisively as db0.
confirming that if the mod in question deleted the reports, they probably wouldn’t reach the admin level.
That’s my guess, I’ve never been admin, and I know the feature was reworked at some point, so not completely sure about that.
I think I remember from the 196 mess that Ada mentioned being able to see reports that haven’t been acted on, but I’m not sure about those that were acted on, even if that action is ignoring. Either way, I’m glad there are meta spaces to bring it up either way!
Yes, I have the same info ha ha. Glad indeed!
Ugh. I’ve been sensing a shift in tone on this instance. And the bowing out of the head admin really didn’t assuage my unease. Now this. I get the feeling I’m going to be changing instances again, which is a shame. This was a good instance for a while.
ETA: Looking into it, it appears this occurred on dbzer0. Probably worth bringing it up there, as well.
If it makes you feel any better Sunaurus is still around and works on the technical stack, he is just not involved directly with day to day moderation and administration.
I posted here because this is the instance the mod uses, but you’re absolutely right, I missed that it wasn’t hosted on that instance, and will be making a relevant post in our own meta community, thanks
Is it transphobic or just woefully ignorant? (I have a point to asking that, bear with me)
I’ve not seen them talk about trans issues before, and haven’t looked yet to see. Edit: I went to look and see. Jfc, they’re an idiot. May or may not be a transphobe, but they are talking about shit that is so far off of reality in multiple places that I don’t even know how to unpack it all. Don’t go brigading, don’t go fucking with them, but holy fuck. I can’t even. It makes it impossible to tell them apart from a transphobe because damn, there is some serious lack of thinking going on.
But, believe it or not, some people are just stupid, rather than bigoted. It’s impossible to tell the difference most of the time, but with user histories, you can check and see if they’re consistent on lemmy.
That’s the whole problem with propaganda. It works. You get enough people parroting inaccurate, or outright made up information, it spreads, and not everyone has the background to recognize how dumb it actually is.
Now, for anyone reading this that holds the opinion stated in the screen shot based on supposed facts, it is simply bullshit. Once someone begins hormone treatment, the changes begin. Those changes functionally erase the “advantages” that are claimed. It is utter tripe. The younger the person is when they begin hormonal treatment, the less time it takes for the supposed advantages to go away.
Now, here’s something else interesting. If the person is an athlete before hormones, and after, the changes from that tend to stay in place. But, and this is the key part, someone born with a functionally female endocrine system and is an athlete before and during puberty has those same advantages.
That’s right. The way bodies change from sustained athletic training are more significant than those from hormones alone.
Muscle attachment points, as a primary example. They form from using one’s body, and that doesn’t play favourites. You lift more, you get bigger attachments. You work harder, you get more.
Now, having bigger muscles does increase that. But even that changes post transition. The bones still shift and reshape. You lose that advantage over time.
So, anyone arguing that having previously been exposed to testosterone is a permanent advantage is wrong.
At most there might be a period of time where the body changes that there may be a temporary advantage. But it will go away.
You know how we know it’ll go away? Records. Go look up the world records for some sports and athletic endeavors. Trans women have competed alongside cis women plenty. There’s no trend of trans women dominating any sport. It isn’t there. Go look at weightlifting in specific, the sport where having lifted while having high testosterone is the biggest advantage possible. Where’s the trans women wrecking those records?
Yeah. Exactly. Despite there being trans lifters men and women, trans athletes simply don’t perform better as a group. Trans women lifters lose muscle mass and drop their maxes. It isn’t immediately, it does take time. But you’ll see it start in a matter of a month or two of starting anti-androgens, much less the rest of hormonal treatment.
But, and I think it important to say, I know this because I have a background as a lifter, and low level medical training. Not everyone would know this. Someone without that advantage might not immediately see the claims of advantages and not know it’s bullshit. They’d have to actually fact check the claims instead of swallowing them whole. Which is why it could be stupidity instead of bigotry.
Also, there are top level cis female athletes that have way higher testosterone naturally than other cis women, and definitely higher than trans women. So, if anything, a trans athlete up against one of them would be disadvantaged. Mind you, having higher testosterone isn’t a gimme for gold medals. Those women, even with that hormonal boost lose to women without it. So, you know, an even bigger hole in the propaganda.
Since nobody that whines about trans athletes ever bothers to suggest waiting periods before competing as their confirmed gender, you can tell they’re either an idiot, or a bigot. The issue is figuring out which, since they look the same.
Transphobia is transphobia whether the person doing it means for it to be or not.
Yes. But a transphobe is different from a transphobic idea.
The post wasn’t about someone saying something transphobic, it was about someone being a transphobe. Those are not inherently the same, which was the entire point of my comment.
Those are not inherently the same,
Yes, they are, like I said, you don’t have to mean it to be transphobic for it to be transphobic. People who are ignorant and get called out who don’t want to be transphobes will admit ignorance, apologise, and improve their behaviour. Anything else makes a person a transphobe, no matter how uncomfortable that makes you.
We’re talking at cross purposes here.
You’re presenting absolutes, I’m saying it isn’t absolute. There’s no room for anything with that. I’ve said my bit, you’ve said yours. Thank you for your time.
Please explain exactly what’s so transphobic about what I said?
BTW I went and read through the studies someone sent me in that thread and turns out the graphs from those studies show that trans women are more similar to cis men than to cis women in all metrics.
go fuck yourself hope you get eaten by a crocodile you thick aussie fuck
Wow how respectful what an excellent good faith engagement of ideas. I’m so glad to see ur true colours. I have an opinion based in my real world experience and scientific journals. You call for my death. Equality.
No, you have an opinion based on fascist pseudoscience and defend it with pathetic tone policing when people rightfully call out your compliance in trans genocide. Eat my shit and hair, nazi pig.
Why should we engage in good faith on your “ideas” of wanting to fucking murder us with your bigotry? Unironically, the world would be better off without you.
If u read what I wrote instead of having a temper tantrum u would understand I defend ur right to do as u wish with ur own body.
Unironically, the world would be better off without you.
What u want me to do about that?
No, I read what you wrote. I am upset about exactly what you wrote. I want you to listen to trans people and their experience. I want you to realize your experience as a cis person makes your opinions irrelevant on the matter and if you want to be a good ally you need to purge transphobia from the spaces you moderate.
yeah basically i hope you choke. eat shit asshole. your sister can go fuck herself too, sounds like a skill issue. obviously your brain has baked from living in that stupid fake ass country
that escalated quickly
It’s a fair and balanced response to the Murdoch based crowd
BTW I went and read through the studies someone sent me in that thread and turns out the graphs from those studies show that trans women are more similar to cis men than to cis women in all metrics.
Which of the studies said that?
Because I’ve been reading through them myself and all I’m getting is stuff like:
This which says:
Results In this cohort of athletes, TW had similar testosterone concentration (TW 0.7±0.5 nmol/L, CW 0.9±0.4 nmol/), higher oestrogen (TW 742.4±801.9 pmol/L, CW 336.0±266.3 pmol/L, p=0.045), higher absolute handgrip strength (TW 40.7±6.8 kg, CW 34.2±3.7 kg, p=0.01), lower forced expiratory volume in 1 s:forced vital capacity ratio (TW 0.83±0.07, CW 0.88±0.04, p=0.04), lower relative jump height (TW 0.7±0.2 cm/kg; CW 1.0±0.2 cm/kg, p<0.001) and lower relative V̇O2max (TW 45.1±13.3 mL/kg/min/, CW 54.1±6.0 mL/kg/min, p<0.001) compared with CW athletes. TM had similar testosterone concentration (TM 20.5±5.8 nmol/L, CM 24.8±12.3 nmol/L), lower absolute hand grip strength (TM 38.8±7.5 kg, CM 45.7±6.9 kg, p=0.03) and lower absolute V̇O2max (TM 3635±644 mL/min, CM 4467±641 mL/min p=0.002) than CM.
And this Which says:
Key Findings Key Biomedical Findings Biological data are severely limited, and often methodologically flawed. There is limited evidence regarding the impact of testosterone suppression (through, for example, gender-affirming hormone therapy or surgical gonad removal) on transgender women athletes’ performance. Available evidence indicates trans women who have undergone testosterone suppression have no clear biological advantages over cis women in elite sport.
Both of which were cited in the articles OP linked.
This is the exact opposite of your claim.
Fascist doesn’t read the studies he links, nothing new here. They’re always like that.
higher oestrogen (TW 742.4±801.9 pmol/L
The one trans woman with negative oestrogen (-59.5 pmol/L) was an outlier and should not have been counted.
Edit: For the Hexbear users that can’t see db0’s comment, they have been asked to move their comm to another instance.
Removed by mod
Ignorance is the enemy: failing to report ignorance begets ignorance.
Education shouldn’t cease just because the ignorant choose to remain so.I blocked all 3 people in that conversation, and the community it came from, that doesn’t mean I’m just going to sit quietly and let a transphobic mod get their way and foster their own little transphobic community, especially since I assume it is against the rules of the instance they’re on.
We need to call out this shit publicly, not just look the other way.
Removed by mod
Yes, an anonymous internet forum, which is open to and used by the public.
I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make - just let transphobes be? Because fuck that.
